British WW2 machine gun ammo

[Grant 14]

I am posting this question here because I think people here are more familiar with machine gun specifics. I found a card board box of obviously military ammo in the old family storeroom. It is rimmed, about 30-06 size and was about 50 cartridge to the box, lying between paper dividers. No markings on the box. I thought it was 7.7 Jap but the headstamp showed 1909 and I dont think that anyone was using spitzer bullets in 1909. I pulled out an old brass machine gun clip/charger (I dont know the proper name) that had been around for 60 or 70 years that I remember. It held 30 rounds. I pulled a cartridge from it and it was identical to the ammo with the 1909 head stamp, but had a roman numeral 7 and the letters MF and a 1943 date. I did some comparison and figured out it was 303 British but would the British have reloaded cases from 1909 with the more modern projectile? What WW2 British machine gun used 30 round strips? This is a curiosity for me? Sorry for being long winded. Thanks for any information. Grant.

[44 AMP]

This is a bit of a puzzler...

The first question is, how "solid" is your identification of 1909 as the date of the ammo??

According to the "infallible" Wiki the British adopted the spitzer bullet in 1910, so, 1909 .303 ammo with spitzers is unlikely, but not impossible.

t would the British have reloaded cases from 1909 with the more modern projectile?

Very doubtful. Which does not rule out the possibility that someone did, at some time. Governments rarely go out and collect up "outmoded" ammo and reload it with "current" bullets. Generally, the older ammo is either left in place with the user units and used until expended, or sometimes, it is turned in for disposal. They don't reload it.

What WW2 British machine gun used 30 round strips? This is a curiosity for me?

The 30 rnd feedstrips are from the Hotchkiss gun. A French design, appearing in 1909 shooting 8mm Lebel rounds. The British used small numbers of a variant of the Hotchkiss chambered in .303 British. They issued some to Cavalry units in 1916, (with a ground mount) and they were used in WWI tanks and a few in aircraft.

During WWII the British were chronically short of arms (especially after Dunkirk) and used everything they had left that still worked. SO, a feed strip for a WWI machine gun loaded with WWII ammo is entirely possible.

At a guess, the Hotchkiss guns they had probably went to "home guard" units, with current production ammo in their feed strips. Frontline units generally used the Vickers gun and the BREN gun though anything is possible.

The largest use of the Hotchkiss pattern guns in WWII were probably the Japanese, who used a version in 7.7mm in large numbers throughout WWII. US troops called it "the woodpecker"

The Hotchkiss gun is an interesting design, there are several variants, according to what I've read, some even put the fired cases back in the feed strips as part of their operating cycle.

Hope this helps.

[Grant 14]

The 1909 came from the headstamp. They were clear but those were not the ones in the strip. The ones in the strip read 1943. I remember them as a kid 60 years ago and ran across them a couple of years ago and thought I would ask about them. I had always assumed they were 7.7 Jap since I had seen some movie with a Jap machine gunner feeding something that looked like them. I will have to look up a Hotchkiss. I wonder if a museum would like them? Thanks a lot. Grant.

[SHR970]

It is possibloe that it is early batch ammo that was assemble in cases manufactured in 1909 and loaded early 1910 as the first batch was March. One way to tell is to look for a cannelure where the case mouth meets the bullet. If no cannelure then it is early ammo and the bullet weighs 160 gr. This article may be of some help: Link

Edit to add: If you aren't aware, the cannelure is the crimp groove in the bullet.

[Grant 14]

I will check for a cannelure on the 1909 stamped cases. It will be a couple of days before I get back to my ranch. That was an interesting link. I have one of the 1943 rounds with me and it shows the crimp into the cannelure but it also has 3 grooves in the case at about where the bullet base must be. About a 1/4 inch down from the end of the case. I think all of the rounds have them. I also have some empties that have WRA, 1943 headstamps. I understand that we made a lot of ammo for the Brits during the war. It is fun to learn. Grant.

[Grant 14]

I compared the 1909 ammo with the 1943 ammo and the 1909 does not have the cannelure. Holding them up next to each other the 1909 is just a tiny bit shorter than the 1943. It must be the 160 gr in the early Mark vII ammo and the 174 gr in the later. I should not have been surprised at a Spitzer in 1909 since our own military changed before then. I still wonder about the 3 crimps (grooves?) in the necks at about where the base of the bullet would be. They are in both early and late ammo. Just curious! Thanks, Grant.

[Jim Watson]

Well, you could expend a couple with a bullet puller and see what is really there.
Not like they are going to be worth their weight in toilet paper.

[105kw]

Long ago a friend was shooting a .303, I asked about the brass marked 1909.
He told me that in the Middle East, Iraq used Islamic alphabet and numbers to mark their ammo.
1909 in their script is 1959, the Roman 7, I would guess is Mark VII.

[SHR970]

While true in Arabic '!909' is 1959 it would be a very distinct marking as 1 is a funny looking slash, 5 is almost triangular and the 9 is different in that the circular part is very small. And they would not use Roman numerals for seven; it would be a single V.

[44 AMP]

It appears (thanks to the magic box) that there are 2 or possibly more "Arabic script" styles of number, and they are very slightly different. Add to that the "blurring" of some characters as they are stamped into the brass can make fine identification difficult.

A nice clear picture of the headstamp would help a lot.

As to the grooves in the case, I have no real idea, possibly and additional "crimp" to make sure the bullet stays put feeding in automatic weapons, possibly something else, related to the loading process.

I've seen a series of photographs, showing British women loading .303 rounds, circa 1940. Interesting stuff, Primed cases in a tray were "charged" by inserting a bundle of Cordite, which was then cut off flush with the case mouth using a knife. Then that tray was moved to the next station where a bullet was seated.

If the "1909" ammo is Arabic I have no idea how it was loaded, but its possible the groove(s) in the case were put there to ensure the bullet wasn't seated too deeply. Just a guess, and worth what you paid for it.

[Grant 14]

I wish I could do photos. Since my old windows 7 computer died and I bought a windows 10, I have had no luck with photo programs. I think it has something to do with old dogs and new tricks. The 1909 head stamp is very clear and in regular script. I really hate my inertia puller and especially with 100+ year old ammo, but maybe I will pull one of each year. I have seen the photos of a basement full of little old ladies reloading (maybe new loading) ammo. Is cordite sensitive to impact? I suspect those slugs are really in tight. Grant.

[Grant 14]

44AMP, the grooves are in both the 1909 and the 1943 ammo but I just thought that I have some WRA 303 empties from WW2 and I will see if they have any trace of those grooves. Grant.