Cap and Ball Revolver For Personal and Home Defense

[RemTim]

Black powder keeps indefinitely if stored properly, I do know that some of the subs will deteriorate over time, so I would use black powder.

Simondenton, do you buy your bp locally or make you own? I am near Fayetteville and can't find anything but the subs.

[Hawg]

The best I can recall, delicacy wasn't one of his strengths back then.

Delicacy isn't a strong point for a lot of us old timers that have been around many forums for awhile. Yeah Mykeal is a little anal about safety but I suppose we all have something we're anal about. I can think of worse things to be anal about. I think everybody should be safe and responsible but not to the point where it ceases to be fun because you're too worried about it.

[RemTim]

Delicacy isn't a strong point for a lot of us old timers that have been around many forums for awhile. .

Delicacy is a hard to master trait for pups like myself too, Hawg

[andrewstorm]

I have a n a a companion under my pillow, r o a under the bed,2 50 cal in line rifles in the corner,another roa in the droor,and just like josey wales another gun perps wont know about till its to late.

[Hawg]

Delicacy is a hard to master trait for pups like myself too, Hawg

Methinks you've been around more than you're admitting.

[RemTim]

Methinks you've been around more than you're admitting.

Nope. But I do consider myself to be a fast learner.

[Hardy]

Dusty, and others. I do believe the nipple channels being cleaned and cleared is the most essential when needing this gun if you have to. Pray not! The 26 gauge nichol wrap guitar string that can be bought for next to nothing in any music shop will work !!!!

[Fiv3]

Thanks for the info guys. It is much appreciated

Just for some clarification, I DO plan on shooting my 1858 often. However, at the range I will probably do the same kinds of foul reducing experimentation that most try. The name of the game at that point will be trouble-free (or as trouble free as possible) extended shooting. Lubes, wads, wiping down the frame after each 6 shots, etc.

For a woods backup, I'm just thinking about the easiest and cleanest way to pack the revolver loaded and at the ready for a week or so.

Thanks for all the tips

[RemTim]

Thank you for your time here guys. One thing is for sure. I am going expand my horizons a bit and add a Colt to add to my arsenal. I like them all and will probably end up with one of each sooner or later........just don't tell anyone, Besides I am afraid the administrators here will not let change my user name and well, I just don't want the word to get out.

[Smokin_Gun]

RemTim your secret is safe with me...us Rem men stick together. Even though we may have a lot of Colts and others too :O)

[mykeal]

us Rem men stick together.

I knew it. They travel in packs.

[Dino.]

Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.

[Slamfire]

Third Model Dragoon for home.

It takes 50 grains of Black powder, most powerful next to a Walker, but the ram rod won't drop and jam the cylinders which frequently happens with Walkers.

It also makes a great club. Extremely heavy revolver.

Otherwise a 1858 Remington. Caps are less likely to jam the action in a Remington. When you shoot a Colt you better practice a wrist flip during cocking. You want the busted cap to fall away from the hammer/frame recess. I have had lots of caps fall between the hammer and frame which jams the revolver.

The Remington is a better design than any of the Colt blackpowder pistols: less parts, solid frame, angled cap seats, drift adjustable front sight.

[Gatofeo]

Well, I checked out those threads to earlier posts.


The claim was made that Elmer Keith witnessed someone, or people, shot with a cap and ball revolver.
As far as I know, and I've been reading him for 40 years, Elmer Keith never once witnessed anyone shot with a cap and ball revolver.
He knew Civil War veterans who said the round ball was a more effective anti-human projectile, compared to the issued conical bullets, but if Elmer ever witnessed someone shot with one, darned if I can find it.

Keith's quote, misquoted in the earlier posts is, "For its size and weight nothing is so deadly as the round ball of pure lead when driven at fairly good velocity. Maximum loads give these slugs fairly high velocity from a 7-1/2 inch barrel gun. Both Major R.E. Stratton and Samuel H. Fletcher told me the .36 Navy with full loads was a far better man killer than any .38 Special they had ever seen used in gun fights."
Source: "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith, Bonanza Books, Copyright 1961, p. 211.

Now, let's examine that famous quote:
"For its size and weight ..."
Most bullets weigh more than a round ball. The .36 ball ranges from 80 to 84 grains, depending upon diameter.
Ballistically, the Navy .36 is equivalent to the .380 ACP with its 95 grain jacketed bullet at 1,000 fps (maximum handload, which I've chronographed myself).

Maximum velocity with the .36 Navy is about 1,000 feet per second, with a ball over 26 to 27 grains of Goex FFFG black powder, no felt wad under it. I've chronographed my own Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy many times. The chamber will only hold 26 to 27 grs and leave enough room to seat the ball below flush.

Stratton and Fletcher, to which Keith refers, were Civil War veterans. I'm unsure when they died, but they likely made this statement before the advent of factory loads using the more efficient semi-wadcutter bullet, or the introduction of the .38 Special High-Speed cartridge (.38/44) that pushed a 158 gr. lead bullet at 1,000 fps.
When Stratton and Fletcher spoke, the only two loads commercially available (remember, there were few reloaders in the 1920s and 1930s) were the 158 gr. lead roundnose and the 148 or 158 gr. lead wadcutter.

From its inception in 1899, the.38 Special typically used a 158 gr. lead roundnosed bullet -- a notoriously poor manstopper against anyone who was hopped-up on dope, drunk or fueled by adrenaline (and let's face it, very few combatants are cool, calm and collected).

Today, with improved bullets, the .38 Special is undoubtedly a far better killer than it once was.

Contrary to an earlier cited post, the U.S. military did NOT use .44 cap and ball revolvers in the Philippines after their .38 Long Colt revolvers failed. Thousands of Colt Single Action Army .45s were pulled from storage and shipped to the Philippines.
Presumably, the load they used was the Army's standard load for the .45 rimmed cartridge: 230 gr. roundnose lead bullet over 28 grains of FFFG black powder, for about 700 fps.
The oft-quoted 250 to 255 gr. lead bullet over 40 grs. of black powder was a civilian load. The military load used a shorter case, so it could be used in the Smith & Wesson Schofield, which had a shorter cylinder than the Colt revolver.
Sources:
Cartridges of the World, 8th edition, p. 270.
U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns by Charles R. Suydam, pps. 226-229.

I was interested to see that report from the 1998 issue of Handguns, that listed the relative stopping power of cap and ball sixguns.
"Stopping power" has been argued about, and formulated, for well over 100 years. A lakeful of ballistic gelatin has been shot.
Yet, it's all educated guesswork. Judging how a person will react when shot -- and creating a percentage of success -- is folly, in my estimation.
Some handguns have a pretty good track record: the .45 ACP and .357 Magnum at maximum velocity with a bullet of 150 grains or more come to mind. Yet, I don't believe you can ascribe a percentage of success to any cartridge; there are just too many variables in individuals.

Finally, I'd never carry a cap and ball revolver for self defense. They are simply too unreliable, regardless of the pains you take to ensure reliability. They were replaced by cartridge guns for a good reason.
Now, if it's all I had, and I were forced to use a cap and ball to defend my life, I'd use it. But when I go into gang-ridden Salt Lake City, my reliable Walther PPK, Kimber 1911 .45, Browning Hi-Power 9mm or Smith & Wesson .38 Special snubnose go with me.

As for people being more civil if a bunch of people started walking around wearing old sixguns, Bowie knives and the like -- I don't believe it. I believe there would be far more gunfights because of challenges to egos.
I've had a concealed weapon permit since 1979. I'd never carry in the open; you're just inviting some testosterone-fueled jackleg to challenge you with, "You think you're so tough with that gun? Bring it on!" as he whips out his own (illegally carried) gun.

If you're going to carry a sidearm, keep it hidden. Keep your mouth shut about it. Don't display it or pull it out unless you are absolutely certain that your life, or the life of someone else, is in danger.

I've been shooting cap and ball sixguns since about 1970.
Carry one for self defense? Not as long as I've got a good cartridge gun.
At the worst possible moment, the cap and ball revolver will probably fail you.
As Robert Service wrote: "The gods must have their laughter."

[RemTim]

Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.

Rather be clubbed with a 44 caliber than shot with it. Is it like taking a toy gun to a gun fight? The guns are not modern, but they work just as good today as when they were introduced 150 years ago.And when the cylinder is empty, use it as a club.
IMHO, black powder guns don't get the respect they deserve, since you can't just load bullets in it. Try getting shot with one and see if you are any less dead than if you had had the honor of getting your ass blown away by a more modern firearm. Geez. give me a break.
My, friend, if you are so sure that a black powder 44 is such a timid, toy gun, try standing in front of one like these at the moment the hammer busts a cap on a properly loaded cylinder full of lead and powder: In your final moments, you may have a change of conviction............

[Smokin_Gun]

Don't get me wrong, I love BP guns....
But for self-defense, you're better off using one as a club.

Do you realize that 45/70 is a BP load?
Along with .45Colt, .44Colt, .44S&W, 45Schofield, 38Colt, 38spl, 50/70, 45/110... along with full cylinders or muzzle loaders & shotgun loads of Black Powder up to and beyond .75" cal. or 10ga, 8ga in chambers with a ball/balls or bullet on top?
Try to ask anyone that has come to my house with a club if they stayed...

[RemTim]

You said it Smokin_Gun!!

[sltm1]

Just for the record, Mykeal, I like the way your brain works !

[RemTim]

I knew it. They travel in packs.

Ya darn tootin' I got your back, Smokin_Gun!!!

then you're just playing cowboy and you're not serious about using the gun for self defense.

But Mykeal, I wanna be a cowboy,baby!!!

[Smokin_Gun]

I knew it. They travel in packs.

Aww Mykeal ... I know you are one of us, go on and say it!

Will this help? The ROA is in my opinion one the the Best 20th Century Original Cap and Ball or Converted Black Powder Revs made...
Well I tried

[RemTim]

Aww Mykeal ... I know you are one of us, go on and say it!

Well, you heard em', fess up!!

[suzukibruce]

Gatofeo, we open carry here, there is no o.k. corral shootouts, we don't have duels on main street, no one trys to test someone elses "manlihood". we dont carry because we want to look tough or cool or trendy, we carry to stay at the top of the food chain. there is alot of wilderness here and i have yet to meet a domesticated bear, coyote, or mountain lion when fishing or getting my mail. someone just shot a bear a week ago in their back yard less than 1/4 mile from me and it just laughed at the .380 it was shot with and ran away. once in december, 3 times in january and twice in february they spotted coyote in town. i saw one in my yard in feb. i don't have the money to pay for mega mag for carry, i own a few .32 and .38 iver johnsons and they are not viable for bear, i can't afford anything other than what i choose to carry so if you don't think i should carry a .44 black powder then go buy me a 500 mag. and if you think i should only ccw carry, pay for the permit and find a holster i can hide it in because my "ultimate ccw" holster won't cut it. if i wanted to be "cool", i be carryin' a nickle plated nine, yo!

[RemTim]

The Remmy guys are gathering. By the way, Suzuki Bruce. I believe you own one of those toy 44's like mine. Do you think beating someone up side the head with it will do more damage than if you just, well, blow them away instead?

[suzukibruce]

i dont know, in '96 i got my head wacked with a baseball bat, in '99 a buddy of mine was shot with vaquero in .45 colt.... he wears a colostomy bag now, i have a scar.... you decide...lol... i think a 2lb gun swung at my head is easier to dodge then a 250grain ball of hot lead traveling at 700 fps aspecially with 5 buddies following it.... now i do agree on the reliability issue of a black powder revolver, if one chamber doesnt go off the next probably will, now if you get a dud in a semiauto....

bang! bang! click! click! click! "oh crap, dud round, uh, uh, uh, rack slide... uhh, its stuck, broken shell? no! sove pipe? what? what is goign on... uh, uh, uh... now what do i do?? POW! lights out....you fail.... glock 17

bang! bang! click! bang! bang! bang!--- you win! -1858 remmy


you cannot beat the accuracy power and reliability of a revolver... they will kill now just as well as they did 150 years ago and the powders are better, the primers are better, the ball is better the guns are better. the reason for the world going to cased ammo is the same reason McDonalds stays in business.. it's quicker and easier...

[RemTim]

I have one toy gun for each hand, i pity the fool who thinks they won't send him to hell.