Frames? Can someone please explain?

Kimio · April 4, 2018, 12:53 AM

So I’ve been reading around and I constantly see terms such as J frame or K frame. As far as I can tell, this is the general shape of the revolver’s body, however, I’m not sure why you would pick one over the other.

Does the type of from offer a mechanical or ergonomic advantage over one design over the other?

For someone with medium hand size, is this something I should even consider if I were to be shopping around for one?

Bill DeShivs · April 4, 2018, 01:02 AM

S&W frames:
J- small frame revolver
K- medium frame
L- medium-large
N- large frame

Model12Win · April 4, 2018, 02:49 AM

X-frames are the .500 S&W and .460 S&W frames (them's the big boys).

I think the Governor .410 is a Z-frame but don't quote me on that. It's a handheld shotgun revolver.

FotoTomas · April 4, 2018, 03:38 AM

Yes you should consider frame size when shopping for a revolver.

Colt also has revolvers with different frame sizes. My 1941 Police Positive Special and 1962 Detective Special are on the Colt "D" frame. Larger than the Smith and Wesson "J" frame but smaller than the Smith "K" frame.

Frame size often but not always determines the use of the revolver. A .22 kit gun or .38 defensive pocket revolver are generally better in the smaller sizes where duty or hunting revolvers are generally the larger sizes.

Enjoy you revolver quest.

CajunBass · April 4, 2018, 05:42 AM

A "J" Frame S&W 642, five shot 38 special

A "K" Frame Model 66, six shot, 357

A "N" frame Model 29, six shot, 44 Magnum.

The differences may appear subtle in the photographs, but they will jump out at at you in the real world.

Smith & Wesson also makes a "L" frame that fits between the K and the N, and an X frame that's bigger than the "N," but I don't have either of those.

They also made at one time a slightly smaller one called the "I" frame but that one is seldom encountered these days.

Master Blaster · April 4, 2018, 07:02 AM

If you actually held one of each you would see the difference, do you have a gun shop or a range near by?

arquebus357 · April 4, 2018, 07:21 AM

In regards to replacement grip panels.

J- only panels for J frames will fit ( square/round butt)
K/L- Panels for K/L will fit both frames (square/round butt)
N- Only panels for N frames will fit

The difference between the K and L frames is the size of the cylinder window. The L frames have a window that will accept the larger 6 shot .357 cylinder.

Fot most S&W revolvers it's just a matter of scale. The J frame, though, has a different lockwork than the rest.

Just my take.

Kimio · April 4, 2018, 08:12 AM

@Master Blaster. I have been stationed overseas for the past couple of years where personal firearms are prohibited and local ranges are pretty much non-existent. The only exposure I’ve had to wheel guns was my uncles .44 magnum that I have no idea what model or manufacturer made it.

@Dpris I don’t hang around this section, and I seldom looked into revolvers. It wasn’t until more recently that I started getting interested in learning about them, so you’ll have to excuse my ignorance. My knowledge is stronger when it comes to historical military rifles and semi automatic handguns.

**Mike Irwin** · April 4, 2018, 08:40 AM

"A "K" Frame Model 66, six shot, 357"

Technically, that's an F frame.

Stainless steel revolvers carried different frame identification designations.

E frame is the stainless analog of the carbon-steel J frame, etc.

Realistically, those stainless steel designators are rarely used outside the factory, and most people, while they've heard of a K frame, have never heard of an F frame.

dahermit · April 4, 2018, 08:52 AM

Just to stir the pot...there is also the obsolete "P" frame, small revolver. I have a P frame .32 Smith & Wesson long revolver that has the leaf mainspring instead of the J frame's coiled mainframe [Sic, "mainspring"]

stinkeypete · April 4, 2018, 09:17 AM

I never quite understood this S&W frame designations myself.
Bill kept it simple
Cajunbass gave great pictures
Others added more of the “yeah and it can get confusing” part.

Although there are stupid questions, this wasn’t one of them!

arquebus357 · April 4, 2018, 09:21 AM

^^^^ I never saw a "coiled mainframe" . This thread sure went to hell.

jackmoser65 · April 4, 2018, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Technically, that's an F frame.

Stainless steel revolvers carried different frame identification designations.

E frame is the stainless analog of the carbon-steel J frame, etc.

Realistically, those stainless steel designators are rarely used outside the factory, and most people, while they've heard of a K frame, have never heard of an F frame.

And the point of this is??? To confuse a newbie with useless information?

HighValleyRanch · April 4, 2018, 09:53 AM

Quote:

I’m not sure why you would pick one over the other.

Which frame size you choose would mostly depend on your intended use and caliber of choice. The J frame being smallest and for concealed carry, the K and L frames being midsize and up to .357 in power, and used for carry, home defense, target, competition, range, and small animal hunting, and then the larger frames N and X being calibers above .357 magnum and mostly for hunting.

You can adjust the grip size on the various frames to fit most people's hands.

Master Blaster · April 4, 2018, 11:54 AM

Before the J frame there was an I frame which is even smaller.

**Mike Irwin** · April 4, 2018, 12:06 PM

"And the point of this is??? To confuse a newbie with useless information?"

Because he asked about frame designations.

Obviously he wants to cut through the confusion, and to do so requires correct information, even if it's a little too esoteric for some.

**Mike Irwin** · April 4, 2018, 12:11 PM

"Just to stir the pot...there is also the obsolete "P" frame, small revolver. I have a P frame .32 Smith & Wesson long revolver that has the leaf mainspring instead of the J frame's coiled mainframe [Sic, "mainspring"] "

No, there wasn't, at least not in factory nomenclature.

The original Hand Ejector, the Model of 1896, was an I frame and introduced the .32 S&W Long cartridge. It was later chambered in .22 and .38 S&W and used the leaf main spring.

After World War II the I frame was re-engineered to slightly enlarge it and to replace the leaf spring with a coil mainspring.

This became known as the Improved I frame.

The Improved I frame still wasn't large enough to fit the .38 Special, so the J frame was introduced in the very late 1940s/early 1950s.

**Mike Irwin** · April 4, 2018, 12:13 PM

The smallest frame size S&W ever produced in the Hand Ejector series was the M frame, chambered only for .22 Long (NOT Long Rifle).

The first version had the standard thumb latch to release the cylinder, but the subsequent two versions when to a barrel lug pull out lock that did away with the need for fitting very tiny parts into the M frame.

These were the original LadySmith revolvers, and are highly sought by collectors today.

Jim Watson · April 4, 2018, 12:16 PM

And it doesn't translate by make.
There are Colt I and J frames but they are not at all like Smith I and J.

CajunBass · April 4, 2018, 12:19 PM

I've never heard of an "N" frame. Learn something new every day I suppose.

Here's another one. I put it on layaway just a couple of hours ago. I THINK it's an "I" frame, but I'm not sure at this point if it's an "I" an "Improved I" or what, but it gives you an idea of the size.

It's a "Regulation Police" in 32 Long. It's a rather small, almost delicate looking gun. The S/N is in the 586XXX range. (The box numbers to the gun.)

FITASC · April 4, 2018, 12:59 PM

Looks like my I frame 32SWL. Fun gun to shoot

T. O'Heir · April 4, 2018, 02:24 PM

"...size you choose would mostly depend on your intended use..." Nope. It's about how well the revolver fits your hand. Mostly about the reach to the trigger.
'J' frame grips are tiny, wee, things that can be fixed by changing the actual grip. A 'K' will fit your hand or it won't. They can sometimes be made to fit better, if it's too small, by changing grips. Too big cannot.
And then it gets weird. The grip frame on a 2 or 3 inch M19/66 is the same as a 'J' frame and putting a Pachmayr grip on makes it fit normal sized hands that the regular 'K' frame does not.
"...never heard of an "N" frame..." Model 28, 29, 25, et al.

Technosavant · April 4, 2018, 02:32 PM

For size comparisons, the .357mag is available in four of the five current-offering frame sizes from S&W. In these various sizes, the window in the frame gets larger and larger, allowing for more capacity in the cylinder.

J frame: 5 shot
K frame: 6 shot
L frame: 7 shot (they make 6 rounders in this size, but the L is slightly larger so they can fit another)
N frame: 8 shot

I'd like to see if S&W could fit 9 or 10 in the X frame, but that's just because I'm weird.

HighValleyRanch · April 4, 2018, 02:51 PM

Quote:

"...size you choose would mostly depend on your intended use..." Nope. It's about how well the revolver fits your hand.

Most people would not choose to stuff an N frame in their pocket, nor would they choose to shoot competition with a j frame.

Quote:

And then it gets weird. The grip frame on a 2 or 3 inch M19/66 is the same as a 'J' frame

Wrong again. A model 19/66 is K frame square or round butt. J frame is smaller. You cannot put j frame grips on a k frame....(and them fit correctly)

Driftwood Johnson · April 4, 2018, 07:04 PM

Howdy

It's really a lot simpler than all that.

At least in S&W land. In the early days of Tip Ups and Top Breaks, frame sizes were numbered. 1, 1 1/2, 2, & 3. We can go into that at another time.

With the coming of the models with side swinging cylinders (Hand Ejectors) S&W gave the frames letters. M, I, K, and N. Let's talk about M in a minute. The other three were the sizes that could house a cylinder that could accept six cartridges. I for six 32 caliber cartridges, K for six 38 caliber cartridges, and N for six 44 caliber cartridges. It's that simple.

That is not to say that five shot versions of some of these did not exist for larger cartridges, they did. But in the beginning I, K, and N size frames were developed to house cylinders that had six chambers for each of those three calibers.

Later, the I frame was stretched to accept longer cylinders that could accept five 38 Special cartridges, resulting in the J frame.

The tiny Ladysmith was the only revolver made with the M frame. A seven shot revolver chambered for the 22 Long. Only made from 1902 until 1921.

Pictures are worth 1000 words because words are meaningless without comparison photos department:

Top to bottom:

N Frame 44 Special Triple Lock

K Frame 38 Military and Police

J Frame Model 36 (Chiefs Special)

I Frame 32 Regulation Police

M Frame Ladysmith

Camera Shy:

L Frame Model 686. This size is between the K and N in size. It was developed to increase the diameter of the cylinder slightly from the K frame. This was done so 357 Magnum revolvers could be made without a relief cut on the underside of the forcing cone. The relief cut on the forcing cone was often a problem because the forcing cone could split with some 357 Magnum loads.

Also Camera Shy:

X Frame. A ridiculously over sized frame developed for ridiculously overpowered revolver cartridges such as 454 Casull, 460 S&W Magnum, 500 S&W Magnum.

Z Frame. An even more ridiculously over sized frame for the Governor; 45 ACP/45 Colt/410 Shotgun cartridges.

X Frames and Z Frames are not allowed in my house.

April 4, 2018, 12:53 AM	#1
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	Frames? Can someone please explain? So I’ve been reading around and I constantly see terms such as J frame or K frame. As far as I can tell, this is the general shape of the revolver’s body, however, I’m not sure why you would pick one over the other. Does the type of from offer a mechanical or ergonomic advantage over one design over the other? For someone with medium hand size, is this something I should even consider if I were to be shopping around for one?

April 4, 2018, 01:02 AM	#2
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	S&W frames: J- small frame revolver K- medium frame L- medium-large N- large frame __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

April 4, 2018, 05:42 AM	#5
CajunBass Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia Posts: 4,767	A "J" Frame S&W 642, five shot 38 special A "K" Frame Model 66, six shot, 357 A "N" frame Model 29, six shot, 44 Magnum. The differences may appear subtle in the photographs, but they will jump out at at you in the real world. Smith & Wesson also makes a "L" frame that fits between the K and the N, and an X frame that's bigger than the "N," but I don't have either of those. They also made at one time a slightly smaller one called the "I" frame but that one is seldom encountered these days. __________________ For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (NKJV)

April 4, 2018, 08:40 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"A "K" Frame Model 66, six shot, 357" Technically, that's an F frame. Stainless steel revolvers carried different frame identification designations. E frame is the stainless analog of the carbon-steel J frame, etc. Realistically, those stainless steel designators are rarely used outside the factory, and most people, while they've heard of a K frame, have never heard of an F frame. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 4, 2018, 08:52 AM	#10
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Just to stir the pot...there is also the obsolete "P" frame, small revolver. I have a P frame .32 Smith & Wesson long revolver that has the leaf mainspring instead of the J frame's coiled mainframe [Sic, "mainspring"] Last edited by dahermit; April 4, 2018 at 09:55 AM.

April 4, 2018, 02:49 AM	#3
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	X-frames are the .500 S&W and .460 S&W frames (them's the big boys). I think the Governor .410 is a Z-frame but don't quote me on that. It's a handheld shotgun revolver.

April 4, 2018, 03:38 AM	#4
FotoTomas Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 180	Yes you should consider frame size when shopping for a revolver. Colt also has revolvers with different frame sizes. My 1941 Police Positive Special and 1962 Detective Special are on the Colt "D" frame. Larger than the Smith and Wesson "J" frame but smaller than the Smith "K" frame. Frame size often but not always determines the use of the revolver. A .22 kit gun or .38 defensive pocket revolver are generally better in the smaller sizes where duty or hunting revolvers are generally the larger sizes. Enjoy you revolver quest.

April 4, 2018, 07:02 AM	#6
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	If you actually held one of each you would see the difference, do you have a gun shop or a range near by?

April 4, 2018, 07:21 AM	#7
arquebus357 Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2016 Location: Atlanta, Georgia area Posts: 455	In regards to replacement grip panels. J- only panels for J frames will fit ( square/round butt) K/L- Panels for K/L will fit both frames (square/round butt) N- Only panels for N frames will fit The difference between the K and L frames is the size of the cylinder window. The L frames have a window that will accept the larger 6 shot .357 cylinder. Fot most S&W revolvers it's just a matter of scale. The J frame, though, has a different lockwork than the rest. Just my take.

April 4, 2018, 08:12 AM	#8
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	@Master Blaster. I have been stationed overseas for the past couple of years where personal firearms are prohibited and local ranges are pretty much non-existent. The only exposure I’ve had to wheel guns was my uncles .44 magnum that I have no idea what model or manufacturer made it. @Dpris I don’t hang around this section, and I seldom looked into revolvers. It wasn’t until more recently that I started getting interested in learning about them, so you’ll have to excuse my ignorance. My knowledge is stronger when it comes to historical military rifles and semi automatic handguns.

April 4, 2018, 09:17 AM	#11
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	I never quite understood this S&W frame designations myself. Bill kept it simple Cajunbass gave great pictures Others added more of the “yeah and it can get confusing” part. Although there are stupid questions, this wasn’t one of them!

April 4, 2018, 09:21 AM	#12
arquebus357 Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2016 Location: Atlanta, Georgia area Posts: 455	^^^^ I never saw a "coiled mainframe" . This thread sure went to hell.

April 4, 2018, 11:54 AM	#15
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Before the J frame there was an I frame which is even smaller.

April 4, 2018, 12:06 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"And the point of this is??? To confuse a newbie with useless information?" Because he asked about frame designations. Obviously he wants to cut through the confusion, and to do so requires correct information, even if it's a little too esoteric for some. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 4, 2018, 12:11 PM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Just to stir the pot...there is also the obsolete "P" frame, small revolver. I have a P frame .32 Smith & Wesson long revolver that has the leaf mainspring instead of the J frame's coiled mainframe [Sic, "mainspring"] " No, there wasn't, at least not in factory nomenclature. The original Hand Ejector, the Model of 1896, was an I frame and introduced the .32 S&W Long cartridge. It was later chambered in .22 and .38 S&W and used the leaf main spring. After World War II the I frame was re-engineered to slightly enlarge it and to replace the leaf spring with a coil mainspring. This became known as the Improved I frame. The Improved I frame still wasn't large enough to fit the .38 Special, so the J frame was introduced in the very late 1940s/early 1950s. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 4, 2018, 12:13 PM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The smallest frame size S&W ever produced in the Hand Ejector series was the M frame, chambered only for .22 Long (NOT Long Rifle). The first version had the standard thumb latch to release the cylinder, but the subsequent two versions when to a barrel lug pull out lock that did away with the need for fitting very tiny parts into the M frame. These were the original LadySmith revolvers, and are highly sought by collectors today. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 4, 2018, 12:16 PM	#19
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	And it doesn't translate by make. There are Colt I and J frames but they are not at all like Smith I and J.

April 4, 2018, 12:19 PM	#20
CajunBass Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia Posts: 4,767	I've never heard of an "N" frame. Learn something new every day I suppose. Here's another one. I put it on layaway just a couple of hours ago. I THINK it's an "I" frame, but I'm not sure at this point if it's an "I" an "Improved I" or what, but it gives you an idea of the size. It's a "Regulation Police" in 32 Long. It's a rather small, almost delicate looking gun. The S/N is in the 586XXX range. (The box numbers to the gun.) __________________ For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (NKJV)

April 4, 2018, 12:59 PM	#21
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Looks like my I frame 32SWL. Fun gun to shoot __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

April 4, 2018, 02:24 PM	#22
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...size you choose would mostly depend on your intended use..." Nope. It's about how well the revolver fits your hand. Mostly about the reach to the trigger. 'J' frame grips are tiny, wee, things that can be fixed by changing the actual grip. A 'K' will fit your hand or it won't. They can sometimes be made to fit better, if it's too small, by changing grips. Too big cannot. And then it gets weird. The grip frame on a 2 or 3 inch M19/66 is the same as a 'J' frame and putting a Pachmayr grip on makes it fit normal sized hands that the regular 'K' frame does not. "...never heard of an "N" frame..." Model 28, 29, 25, et al. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

April 4, 2018, 02:32 PM	#23
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	For size comparisons, the .357mag is available in four of the five current-offering frame sizes from S&W. In these various sizes, the window in the frame gets larger and larger, allowing for more capacity in the cylinder. J frame: 5 shot K frame: 6 shot L frame: 7 shot (they make 6 rounders in this size, but the L is slightly larger so they can fit another) N frame: 8 shot I'd like to see if S&W could fit 9 or 10 in the X frame, but that's just because I'm weird.

April 4, 2018, 07:04 PM	#25
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy It's really a lot simpler than all that. At least in S&W land. In the early days of Tip Ups and Top Breaks, frame sizes were numbered. 1, 1 1/2, 2, & 3. We can go into that at another time. With the coming of the models with side swinging cylinders (Hand Ejectors) S&W gave the frames letters. M, I, K, and N. Let's talk about M in a minute. The other three were the sizes that could house a cylinder that could accept six cartridges. I for six 32 caliber cartridges, K for six 38 caliber cartridges, and N for six 44 caliber cartridges. It's that simple. That is not to say that five shot versions of some of these did not exist for larger cartridges, they did. But in the beginning I, K, and N size frames were developed to house cylinders that had six chambers for each of those three calibers. Later, the I frame was stretched to accept longer cylinders that could accept five 38 Special cartridges, resulting in the J frame. The tiny Ladysmith was the only revolver made with the M frame. A seven shot revolver chambered for the 22 Long. Only made from 1902 until 1921. Pictures are worth 1000 words because words are meaningless without comparison photos department: Top to bottom: N Frame 44 Special Triple Lock K Frame 38 Military and Police J Frame Model 36 (Chiefs Special) I Frame 32 Regulation Police M Frame Ladysmith Camera Shy: L Frame Model 686. This size is between the K and N in size. It was developed to increase the diameter of the cylinder slightly from the K frame. This was done so 357 Magnum revolvers could be made without a relief cut on the underside of the forcing cone. The relief cut on the forcing cone was often a problem because the forcing cone could split with some 357 Magnum loads. Also Camera Shy: X Frame. A ridiculously over sized frame developed for ridiculously overpowered revolver cartridges such as 454 Casull, 460 S&W Magnum, 500 S&W Magnum. Z Frame. An even more ridiculously over sized frame for the Governor; 45 ACP/45 Colt/410 Shotgun cartridges. X Frames and Z Frames are not allowed in my house.