Advice on AR barrel length: what's the status of ATF rule on braces?

[Pistoler0]

I have a PSA AR pistol lower with a KAK Industries Shockwave Blade, for which I would like to get either a 9mm or 22lr upper. This is for affordability of practice. I would use the firearm to introduce new shooters to the AR platform, for plinking and maybe for matches (where it is allowed). It would also be a home defense firearm (if I go with 9mm).

My hesitation is that although I would like to go with a barrel shorter than 16" (say 10.5 or 12), I don't fully understand what the status of the ATF ruling on braces is. I definitely do not want to have to register it as a SBR.

Would you suggest to go for a 16" upper to avoid all the hassle, or do you anticipate the ATF's rule on braces to be dropped or not enforced?

[Logs]

Rumor there will be a decision made by end of year. Then expect a lawsuit so who knows what is going to happen with the braces.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by Logs

Rumor there will be a decision made by end of year. Then expect a lawsuit so who knows what is going to happen with the braces.

That sux.

I have noticed that 16" barrel uppers are "out of stock" more often and that the shorter ones sell at a considerably lower price too. I wonder if demand for pistol length uppers is drying up because all this uncertainty.

[Willie Lowman]

Pistoler0, does your state allow SBR's?

I know paying an extra $200 sucks but a real stock is way better than a pistol brace.

[FrankenMauser]

Just SBR the thing.
Save yourself the headaches and waffling ATF opinions.
Just SBR it so you can run whatever uppers you want, *and* use a real stock.

Rumor there will be a decision made by end of year. Then expect a lawsuit so who knows what is going to happen with the braces.

Scheduled for release in August, I believe.
But with this week's SCOTUS decision on the EPA "making up laws", the AFT may reconsider their actions.

So, still uncertainty.

[9x19]

Don't sweat the minor stuff.

IF the ATF changes their ruling on braces, just take it off and slip a foam sleeve on the buffer tube. It is still a handgun after-all.

I think life's too short to worry over stuff I can't control, so I currently have 12 handguns configured with braces. If the rules change, so will I... until then. meh

[Logs]

This is a Bear Creek side charging handle in 223 Wylde Upper that showed up today. $243 shipped complete. Hard to beat. Will shoot it tomorrow.


BC-15, .223 Wylde, 16” 416R Stainless M4 Barrel, 1:9 Twist, Carbine Length Gas System, 15” MLOK Rail|New MLOK Side Charging (Gen 2) Upper (Billet Upper Receiver)


https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/gun...en2-upper.html

[HiBC]

At this point,the BATF rules are "proposed" .

IMO,that makes them a vague moving target. IMO,things are unsettled right now. I wonder if the SCOTUS ruling on EPA regs will impact BATF regs. I do not know.

Right now on youtube, several videos step you through the BATF questionaire or "test" to see if you acquire enough "points" to have a problem. Thats all good,but its not the law yet. You still won't know.

Some suggest registering as an SBR. I think they should do whatever makes them happy but they ought to save their advice. Its not the best answer for me.
I would not have built an AR Pistol with the plan of registering an SBR. Its more than the $200. Its a crime to cross a state line with an SBR without obtaining written BATF permission. I want my SD firearm to be legally mobile.

I built it because the law said I was OK to build it. I'm not "getting away" with anything.
Given I made the investment in a legal gun, I do firmly believe the BATF owes us clear and definitive criteria so we can build a compliant and lawful firearm. This vague discretionary BS is just a tool to criminalize people. I'll obey the law. Write it down,and the BATF needs to obey the law,too. If its a legal gun,don't hassle the holder.

I decided to heck with the whole "brace" situation. I have a bare naked pistol length buffer tube with no brace. I don't need a brace because I don't need a fake shoulder stock. I spot weld the buffer tube under my cheek bone. The buffer tube does not contact my shoulder. Its not a prairie dog gun. Its a SD gun,easily 100 yd effective. Its a 300 BLK.

For supersonic 110 to 125 gr loads,its ballistically equivalent to the M-1 30 Carbine. I went with this plan due to 5.56 brass being cheap and readily available. Easy to make into 300 BLK. So much for that idea.

So today I find myself comparing my 30 M-1 Carbine with the replica GI folding stock to my 10 in bbl 300 BLK AR pistol.

Colorado limits mag cap to 15 rounds. I have 15 rd capacity AR Mags,steel,they seem fine. From Primary Arms. 15 round M-1 Carbine mags are easy.
Yes,I have legit grandfathered 30 rd AR mags. But 15 rd mags are less likely to excite some LEO. I truly WANT to be legal.

Anyway. I'm wondering if my expense and effort to build a 300 BLK pistol would have been better spent on a bunch of 30 Carbine ammo.

20/20 hindsight.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by W. Lowman

I know paying an extra $200 sucks but a real stock is way better than a pistol brace.

This is how I view it. A stock is an important part of how a rifle fits and shoots.

Also, some of these braces are expensive for what they are. To get a stamp and use a normal stock isn't really $200 more.

[Sharkbite]

Anyway. I'm wondering if my expense and effort to build a 300 BLK pistol would have been better spent on a bunch of 30 Carbine ammo.

300blk is closer to 7.62x39 then 30carbine. My 9” AAC SBR consistently runs 110gn at ~2300. 7.62x39 push 122grainers at ~ the same speed. 30carbine loads drive the 110gn at ~1900.

[rickyrick]

You can shoot an AR pistol just fine without a brace and without shouldering it. Just put the side tube on your cheek like a rifle.
I started with a 5.56 pistol but later converted it to .300 aac and like it much better.
I do think it’s all pretty dumb, the whole SBR thing. Let’s make the public shoot guns with less stability just so old time mobsters can’t carry guns in a violin case.

[stagpanther]

You can shoot an AR pistol just fine without a brace and without shouldering it. Just put the side tube on your cheek like a rifle.

I agree. I have several pistols which I leave any kind of brace off altogether and I find is no harder to steady and shoot than a lever gun. In some ways might be even better since it could force better holding habits.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by Willie Lowman

Pistoler0, does your state allow SBR's?

I know paying an extra $200 sucks but a real stock is way better than a pistol brace.

Lowman, yes SBRs are allowed in CO.

The problem with SBRs is not the $cost of the tax stamp and registration for me, but the requirement to notify the ATF and fill out a form every time one takes the firearm out of state.

So living in CO, if I go to shoot in Utah, or Nevada, I'd have to file an ATF Form 5320.20 (Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms).

I do this quite a lot as I take classes out of state, and to me it is the biggest turn off against getting an SBR.

[44 AMP]

Aside from the cost, don't forget the expected several month (or longer) wait time,

one fellow I know went the SBR route with a Tommygun (semi). So he could have one that looked like the WWII GI gun, Took the ATF nearly 10 months to approve it. After a few years, he was tired of it and wanted to sell it. He had a buyer. Took the ATF 14 months to approve the transfer.

This was several years ago, things might be different today. Other people (some here) have had different wait times, some, considerably less. There seems to be no way to predict how long long it will take, accurately. Every case can be different.

[FrankenMauser]

I do this quite a lot as I take classes out of state, and to me it is the biggest turn off against getting an SBR.

I send them in bulk every year, at the same time - typically in April or May. The forms are pre-filled on my computer and backup drives, using the addresses of gun ranges, training centers, or hotels. Date range is Aug 1, 202X - July 31, 202X. All I have to do is change the year, print, and sign. I add another state each year. At this point, I am covered from the Pacific ocean to the Mississippi river, Mexican border to Canadian border, with only a few exceptions (places that I don't want to visit, and, if I did, I would never be taking an SBR).

Takes about an hour of my time and $2 in paper, ink, and stamps.
It is not difficult or time consuming, and I only have to do it once a year.

You don't need a new F20 for every trip. You just need one for each state you travel to/through, each year.

This was several years ago, things might be different today. Other people (some here) have had different wait times, some, considerably less. There seems to be no way to predict how long long it will take, accurately. Every case can be different.

I obviously find the "but I have to wait" argument to be invalid, since I have done the F1 and F4 wait several times and have an SBR waiting on an eF4 right now. And, yes, my wait times were quite variable - from an F1 at 45-ish days, to an F4 over 13 months, to multiple bad F3s that prevented me from even starting the F4 wait for 17 months.

The argument, to me, is just a weird form of mental self-flagellation; and an excuse for people that like to complain.

"This thing that I really want will take time to get. Therefore, I am not going to try. But I will continue complaining about wanting the thing, but not being able to have the thing, because it takes time. In addition, I will spend time, money, and energy trying to find an ineffective substitute for this thing that I want. I will not admit it, but I know that by the time I give up on the substitutes, I will have spent more time and money dodging the wait than it would have taken to get the real thing to begin with."

That fluster-cluck of F3s and the delayed F4 were a pain in the butt and I still don't have that SBR in my possession. By the time the F4 gets approved, it will probably be 2 years of waiting. That is a bunch of suck, and I really wish we had a better process (and that the seller didn't screw up the F3s so many times and so badly).
But I guarantee one fact: In the end, I will have another SBR and the "but it takes so long and I don't want to deal with it" people will still be beating the same drum and complaining that the (normally shorter) wait is too long.


--

As for the 14 month wait to transfer the rifle, to get rid of it... That is the game that one signs up for, when playing with these toys. But it is dumb, if someone is in a hurry.

There are quicker solutions as a seller. The quickest of all is to remove it from the NFRTR. Reconfigure the firearm into a non-NFA configuration (pistol, rifle, whatever), send the NFRTR removal request to the ATF, and cancel the engraving (if desired or required) when the response comes back. Typically takes a few weeks.
Any potential buyer pays the same amount for the tax stamp, whether F1 or F4; and if they want to re-SBR it, the F1 will probably come back faster than the F4 would have.

[HiBC]

I'm asking this question because I don't know the answer.

Beginning with the idea that building a 10 in bbl AR pistol on a "multi" lower was and is 100% legal (providing the correct accouterments are installed,ie no fore grips,etc)

I'm sure it would be perfectly lawful to use this,or any other pistol, in a SD incident that justifies "deadly force",

What my question is about,what is the status of using a registered NFA Firearm
in a deadly force SD incident?

Are there legal complications to using a registered Thompson submachine gun under the provisions of the Castle Doctrine in my home at 3AM? How about a suppressed firearm?

Does registration as an SBR disqualify an AR pistol as a SD pistol?

I'm into being squeaky clean legal. I won't create or own prohibited items. Its not about "availability" With 30 years of machinist experience, its not about "Can I buy one?" Its about "I want nothing to do with violating firearms law"

I did my research. I complied. When rules seemed to change, I scrapped parts and spent more money to comply. I'm doing my part.

I never would have started an SBR project. I'm not turning up any "solvent traps " on my South Bend. I just don't care to play the NFA game.

My Freedom and my 2A rights are too precious to piddle away getting busted for something frivolous and unnecessary.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by HiBC

What my question is about,what is the status of using a registered NFA Firearm
in a deadly force SD incident?

Are there legal complications to using a registered Thompson submachine gun under the provisions of the Castle Doctrine in my home at 3AM? How about a suppressed firearm?

This reminds me of a thread more than a decade ago when Mas Ayoob still posted here. The issue was whether a light trigger and provocative inscription on a pistol used in a defensive shooting would cause a prosecution.

There is no law against a light trigger, provocative inscription, short barrel or suppressor on a firearm used in self-defense. Will any of those color the perception of a PO, prosecutor or jury who review your incident?

Speeding isn't any more legal in a grey VW sedan than a red Ferrari. In a gaggle of cars doing 25 over the limit, which would you rather be driving?

[HiBC]

And I have no "cute macho" BS on any of my guns. Not my thing.

But we are back to the "Grey emotion" stuff.

I watched Kyles trial...I get it.

Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but I'd like to know that if road conditions and traffic are good, I can drive 45 mph an a 45 mph speed zone.

I'm not looking for the grey fuzzy area of "What might I get away with"

I want the definitive answer " The fence is here. Stay on this side of the fence,and you are free and welcome. Cross the fence,and you are tresspassing"

I don't even want to trespass. I just want to know where I can BE.

I truly want to relax with,and appreciate Law Enforcement. If I can know "I'm legal, nothing to worry about, Hello,Officer!"

Fuzzy grey law that makes me always vulnerable will cause me to view all cops as Gestapo. Dopers tend to see all cops as narcs. Its us vs them.

That is a big chunk of problems in our society.

Wouldn't it be great if we could view the BATF as friends and advocates for our RTKBA. Wouldn't it be great if the BATF,like many Sheriffs, would stand up and say "Whoa,POTUS, whoa Congress!. We swore an oath to uphold the Constitution!! The People have a Right to own that tool! Back Off"!

But no. Its more like Randy Weaver. "We want you to saw the barrel right there." Now we will shoot your Wife ,Kids ,and dog.

[dogtown tom]

Pistoler0
......but the requirement to notify the ATF and fill out a form every time one takes the firearm out of state.

So living in CO, if I go to shoot in Utah, or Nevada, I'd have to file an ATF Form 5320.20 (Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms).

I do this quite a lot as I take classes out of state, and to me it is the biggest turn off against getting an SBR.

You only need one form per state per year, not for each trip.
If you know you'll travel to state X three times, just one form is needed.

Just make the dates of temporary travel no more than 364 days from the day you submit.

I have customers that travel for competition and submit 10-15 every year like clockwork for the states they'll travel to.

[Pistoler0]

FrankenMauser, your post above, #15, describes exactly the reason why I would like to have a braced pistol (if the ATF allows it) instead of an SBR.

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

You only need one form per state per year, not for each trip.
If you know you'll travel to state X three times, just one form is needed.

Does the form need to be filed in advance? If my buddy says "hey, lets go to my uncle's ranch in WY to shoot coyotes this weekend", can I file the form and take off that very same day?

You said "If you know you'll travel to state X", and that's the issue for me. The need to file a form takes away the spontaneity and freedom of going wherever I want to go with my firearm at a time of my choosing.

If the braced pistol avenue is still available, to me it is much preferable. I am thinking about going with a 16" upper and calling it a day, or maybe wait until the ATF clarifies the issue with braces.

[44 AMP]

until the ATF clarifies the issue with braces.

However the ATF winds up "clarifying" the issue with braces, if it is something in our favor, don't expect it to be permanent. As I understand it, right now, the braces are legal because the ATF does not define them as a stock. If they change their mind about that, then your "brace" becomes a stock, under the law, and your braced pistol becomes an unregistered SBR, by definition.

Before I lost interest in keeping track, I lived through three different ATF definitions of what was, and wasn't a stocked pistol requiring NFA registration, and those were before AR pistols and braces even existed.

There are many things I've come to expect from the ATF. Permanence in their definition of certain items isn't one of them.

[Sharkbite]

Build it as a pistol. Brace it. When the BATFE finally gets around to implementing the new rule (if that happens in light of some recent SCOTUS decisions), and if that rule basically says “no braces”, just remove the brace. Leave the buffer tube and just pull off the brace.

I used non braced AR pistols for years before braces were invented. Not a problem.