Bird shot for home defense!!!

[Super-Dave]

So it seems 99% of everyone out there thinks bird shot to the face won't work. I respect your opinion.

I still only have buck shot in my HD shotgun now. I was just raising the scenario that if all you had was bird shot that it could be an effective self defense tool if you aim for the head.

Now most people around here seem to think #4 buck shot is also weak and they wouldn't even shoot rabbits with it.

How about #4 buckshot to the head? Would you feel comfortable about using #4 buckshot to the head?

Do you think the 54 pellet #4 buck that winchester makes would be an acceptable round to use for head shots?

I am not expecting the pellets to penetrate the skull and damage the brain. I am expecting for there to be such severe damage that "Joe Thug" is no longer a threat.

I know, I know "You should only make torso shots" Suppose all you had was #4 buck in your shotgun and several drunk bikers high on meth wearing thick leather coats and body armor, carying machetes and baseball bats wraped with bob wire surrounded your house and were breaking through your front and back door simutaneously.

Would you go for the head shots?

[PoweredBySoy]

I've recently started looking for home defense options when I visited this forum, and I've found this thread very interesting. But I can't help thinking that it seems a lot of you are just looking for an excuse to kill someone. Humans, the ultimate prey?

I understand the need, and right, to defend your home and family. But it only makes complete sense to me to load your weapon with non-lethal rounds first, a round or two of bird shot, and lethal rounds as backup. If someone actually does break into your home, perhaps with intent to harm you, perhaps just looking for valuables, I have to think that the show of force a 12 gauge provides would be sufficient enough 99% of the time to keep you safe. If the intruder knows you have a 12 gauge, and perhaps you've hit them with bird shot, or perhaps you missed, whatever... once they hear that "cha-chink" and the boom it provides, and they still are determined to come after you, then you will have the buckshot loaded just in case.

If people feel their lives and family are important enough to take up arms against raging serial killers that wear body armor and feel no pain, I can then only assume you never drive on public roads, go outside in thunderstorms, or drink liquids from number 7 plastic containers. Because those things are more likely to kill you than the suggested scenario.

[rantingredneck]

First of all, welcome to TFL.

Second of all, let me apologize for threads like this. All of the "will you take the headshot" drama, is a little overdramatic.

To clear up some misconceptions though.........

But it only makes complete sense to me to load your weapon with non-lethal rounds first, a round or two of bird shot, and lethal rounds as backup.

At bedroom distances or even length of house distances birdshot is not "non-lethal". I would be hard pressed to call any metallic projectile fired from a gun "non-lethal". Even some rubber or bean bag projectiles can be lethal under the right circumstances.

The debate here does not hinge upon birdshot not "killing" someone. Everyone here I believe would agree that birdshot will "kill". There have, after all, been many people killed by it.

Rather the discussion is whether birdshot can be relied upon to stop an armed aggressor in your home. My view, and that of many others is that while birdshot may be lethal to the person you shoot with it (i.e. they'll die hours later on an operating table somewhere), it cannot be relied upon to be immediately incapacitating. After all, we are assuming that if you are shooting at the intruder, it is very likely that he'll be shooting back. That is what you are trying to stop, and quickly.

If people feel their lives and family are important enough

Of utmost importance they are. Nothing else truly matters in this world. We wear our seatbelts. We drive cars with airbags. We don't drive recklessly. We get our annual checkups and take our vitamins. We don't go outside in thunderstorms in fact. We also keep a loaded 12 gauge available for the unlikely event we will need it.

Not sure where the number 7 plastic containers bit fits in. But I prefer my meat to be that I've personally harvested as well .

[Sgt.Fathead]

As I'd said earlier, if it's all one has, #4 it shall be. But the experts, and that's not me but LEOs and guys like Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch and the folks at Front Sight, say go with the 00 and 000 Buck. Surely #4 to the face will stop most people but we don't get to choose who decides to invade our homes and me, I'm preparing for worst case scenario.

SoyBoy, which I say in jest, big fan of soy products and the many uses of this fine legume, you are showing your stripes, my friend. I am a former Marine 0331 (Machine Gunner) and combat veteran. I have traded rounds more times than I ever wanted to and have a pretty ribbon with some stars on it and dead friends to show for it. These pages are populated by many veterans of all times and climes, LEOs, local, state and Federal and ALL those who have tasted the gritty, surreal, other worldly moment of combat wish for nothing more than to never have to taste it again. We prepare for the worst for as I state above, we do not get to choose our adversary. We prepare for the worst because time and experience have shown us that one must bring enough gun. One must be more accurate, hopefully a little faster, than the other guy.

Do you know what happens to the body and mind in these high stress combat situations? It is one thing to be in a highly trained combat attitude, a posture of constant vigilance and awareness at all times. That young Marine I once was twenty years ago was always ready to fight, always ready to shoot, to grapple. My 'situational cognition' was honed by constant training, constant physical drill, testing, re-testing. I am and shall always be Marine proud and would like to think I have an edge over someone who did not serve. But to trust that would be foolish.

In combat, in that crystalline moment, here's what happens; adrenaline goes into overdrive as the core of instinct, the reptilian brain, tries to rapidly access the 'fight or flight' response triggers (now muted by decades of 'civilized living') while the vision narrows and the muscles begin to stiffen as that adrenaline races through you. Are you going to start stroking the pump to eject the bird shot, to get to the heavy gauge man stoppers? Are you going to rely on the look or sound of that slide gun racking? It has been said that the sound of a pump shotgun being cycled is one of the most recognized sounds on Earth. Will it be enough?

A very dear friend, a high school classmate and a fella' I served with in the Marine Corps, is a former NY Port Authority police officer. He now works a quiet, by contrast, NJ town. At our ten year HS reunion, he related a tale of he and three, that's three, fellow officers fighting to get an individual to the ground. Said individual was cranked to the gills on PCP. Said individual was also an average sized woman. Do some research on steroid abuse side effects, crystal meth and inhalants and get back to us, Soy.

[Sgt.Fathead]

Here I am typing away and rantingredneck gets it all in so eloquently and neatly. How's the back?

[rantingredneck]

Doing well Sarge. I liked your response better . And again from someone who didn't Thank You for what you did.

[Super-Dave]

Like Sarge said. Alot of people have already phycologicaly prepared themselves to kill people. Some of us already have.

I was also in the Marine Corps (0352 latter switched to a scout platoon) I served in the first gulf war. I joined the Marine Corps at 17. I was in combat at 18.

I recieved a very good and thourough brain washing while in the Marine Corps. Phycologicaly I am still prepared to kill without remorse. I can still scrap up the remains and body parts of humans and stuff them in the body bag without thinking much of it. (I did this for a while after the war, too many rotting corpses lying around camp)

When I was in my scout platoon I always kept an extra round between my helmet and helmet cover just in case I was out of ammo and was going to be captured. (I am too soft for that whole pow torture thing.)

[PoweredBySoy]

At bedroom distances or even length of house distances birdshot is not "non-lethal". I would be hard pressed to call any metallic projectile fired from a gun "non-lethal". Even some rubber or bean bag projectiles can be lethal under the right circumstances.

The debate here does not hinge upon birdshot not "killing" someone. Everyone here I believe would agree that birdshot will "kill". There have, after all, been many people killed by it.

Rather the discussion is whether birdshot can be relied upon to stop an armed aggressor in your home. My view, and that of many others is that while birdshot may be lethal to the person you shoot with it (i.e. they'll die hours later on an operating table somewhere), it cannot be relied upon to be immediately incapacitating. After all, we are assuming that if you are shooting at the intruder, it is very likely that he'll be shooting back. That is what you are trying to stop, and quickly.

That's fine that bird shot is, rarely, at times lethal. I won't lose too much sleep over one less predator on the streets. But I guess I was just a bit shocked that at least the attempt of non-lethal means wasn't the "norm" for home defense (at least not on this forum). If some poor bastard is in your house, chances are he's some bum looking for a place to sleep, or steal your TV or something... not really a situation that requires 00 buck from the onset.

A very dear friend, a high school classmate and a fella' I served with in the Marine Corps, is a former NY Port Authority police officer. He now works a quiet, by contrast, NJ town. At our ten year HS reunion, he related a tale of he and three, that's three, fellow officers fighting to get an individual to the ground. Said individual was cranked to the gills on PCP. Said individual was also an average sized woman. Do some research on steroid abuse side effects, crystal meth and inhalants and get back to us, Soy.

There will always be horror stories from friends of friends, sure. But I'm trying to approach home defense with a little more realism. As with my personal life, I don't deal with gang bangers, drug dealers or mafia types - so the chances of some guy coming into my home looking to get into a gun fight is virtually 0%.

Certainly not hear to condemn those that have every right (at least in some states) to shoot an intruder in their homes. Again, I despise predators, and I don't mourn their passing. I would just like to think that people would prefer to handle the situation without killing some poor bastard.

[rantingredneck]

If some poor bastard is in your house, chances are he's some bum looking for a place to sleep, or steal your TV or something... not really a situation that requires 00 buck from the onset.

Hope you don't have to test that assumption someday.

I don't live my life based on "chances are".

If I have to use a lethal weapon against someone (becuase that's what guns are no matter how you load them) there will be no "shoot to grievously wound" it will be "shoot to stop". In order to "shoot to stop" I will use the most effective ammunition available.

Birdshot is designed to work on birds. Small feathered creatures with thin skin and lightweight fragile bone structures.

Buckshot is designed to work on large animals with thick skin and dense bones/musculature.

Choose appropriately.

[PoweredBySoy]

Hope you don't have to test that assumption someday.

Me too.

Birdshot is designed to work on birds. Small feathered creatures with thin skin and lightweight fragile bone structures.

Buckshot is designed to work on large animals with thick skin and dense bones/musculature.

Choose appropriately.

I understand bird shot is appropriate for killing birds, and buckshot appropriate for killing large animals... but that doesn't mean I think buckshot is appropriate for the first line of home defense. I do plan my life around "chances are", because then that way I don't have to life with the consequences of needlessly killing some guy rummaging through my house.

If the intruder is part of that .001% (yes, these numbers are straight out of my ass) that is armed and looking to kill me, well, there's always those few shells of buckshot waiting in the chamber.

Anyways, good forum. Lot's of good information here. But seriously, where's the auto-quote button!?

[rantingredneck]

these numbers are straight out of my ass

Indeed. I'm almost positive that most statistics originate from someone's at some point.

Again welcome aboard.

I think autoquote is not enabled due to bandwidth. There's a tech support section you can post that question in though.

[Super-Dave]

Poweredbysoy

I understand your thinking and reasons for your non lethal thinking on the issue. I can respect your position.

However, times have changed. Things are different now. I live in the murder capital in my state. We have 2-3 murders almost everynight.

We are constantly hearing about home invasions now with 2 or more "thugs" breaking in a door armed with weapons.

We also hear about how one person will knock on your door and then when you open it 3-4 four more guys hidden from view bum rush the door when you open it. ( I now have my glock in my hand behind the door when I open my door to unknown individuals).

I even have to carry my gun with me while in church now.

90% of all our murders and violent crime occur at night . Me and my wife have a saying that we have to be home by dark because thats when the vampires come out.

[bestbod85]

"I know, I know "You should only make torso shots" Suppose all you had was #4 buck in your shotgun and several drunk bikers high on meth wearing thick leather coats and body armor, carying machetes and baseball bats wraped with bob wire surrounded your house and were breaking through your front and back door simutaneously.

Would you go for the head shots?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA HA HA, that made me spit out my coffee!.

More to the topic, if it was all i had then yes i would definatily use bird shot or buck shot, heck if i had to i'd use breaching rounds- from there if none of those were working i would beat them with the butt of the weapon!!

"ONE MIND ANY WEAPON" - MCMAP

[RCJ]

I guess I was just a bit shocked that at least the attempt of non-lethal means wasn't the "norm" for home defense (at least not on this forum). If some poor bastard is in your house, chances are he's some bum looking for a place to sleep, or steal your TV or something... not really a situation that requires 00 buck from the onset.

I don't include a firearm in my non-lethal attempt to control the situation. My response (and I imagine that of many here) at first will not be to shoot on sight but rather shouting orders at the intruder to halt and show their hands. If the intruder followed my command, I would not shoot them, but find some means of contacting authorities at that point. If they approached me, then I would likely shoot them, in order to stop their advance. If they fled in a direction other than towards loved ones in the home, I would likely not shoot. Anything in between these two possibilities would be a tricky at-that-moment determination.

I think a gun should be looked at as a lethal weapon only to be used when immediate incapacitation is necessary to insure the safety of myself or someone else. As such, I think loading with effective ammunition (buckshot, in the case of a 12 ga.) is the way to go.

And in the case of Super-Dave's attack of the armored biker gang, I would want 000 buck aimed COM. I'm standing by my opinion that head shots aren't feasible in a HD situation.

[RCJ]

Oh, and welcome PoweredBySoy, always nice to have more voices to share knowledge and bounce around opinions

[PoweredBySoy]

However, times have changed. Things are different now. I live in the murder capital in my state. We have 2-3 murders almost everynight.

We are constantly hearing about home invasions now with 2 or more "thugs" breaking in a door armed with weapons.

We also hear about how one person will knock on your door and then when you open it 3-4 four more guys hidden from view bum rush the door when you open it. ( I now have my glock in my hand behind the door when I open my door to unknown individuals).

Aaaaaahh, and this is a city in America??? Those are some of the saddest statistics I've ever heard, and people shouldn't have to live like that.

[PoweredBySoy]

I don't include a firearm in my non-lethal attempt to control the situation. My response (and I imagine that of many here) at first will not be to shoot on sight but rather shouting orders at the intruder to halt and show their hands. If the intruder followed my command, I would not shoot them, but find some means of contacting authorities at that point. If they approached me, then I would likely shoot them, in order to stop their advance. If they fled in a direction other than towards loved ones in the home, I would likely not shoot. Anything in between these two possibilities would be a tricky at-that-moment determination.

I think a gun should be looked at as a lethal weapon only to be used when immediate incapacitation is necessary to insure the safety of myself or someone else. As such, I think loading with effective ammunition (buckshot, in the case of a 12 ga.) is the way to go.

That approach sounds very logical to me. Something for me to think about.

[22-rimfire]

I'm perfectly comfortable using No. 4 shot for home defense. I actually mix shot sizes up to "0". "00" is unnecessary. The objective is to eliminate the threat and not kill necessarily. In an indoor environment, "bird shot" is just fine and I would choose No. 4 or larger shot size.

[Sgt.Fathead]

Um, dead men tell no tales? This is America, you defend your home your way and we'll defend ours. Still think your take is naive, Soy.

No thanks needed, it was great to serve, red.

[M1911]

Um, dead men tell no tales?

Maybe not, but forensics sure does. And the witnesses you didn't see. And the 911 tape, etc.

[PoweredBySoy]

Um, dead men tell no tales?

Kill 'em all!!! lol

[tplumeri]

Rosie O Donnell breaks down your door in a see through nightie

YIKES! thoughts of that could make me start drinking again!

This isn't as bad as some posts we used to see, like what to do when the zombies come

Actually, a head shot with birdshot IS effective against Zombies!

Kill 'em all!!! lol

We've corrupted another one.........

[PoweredBySoy]

Still think your take is naive, Soy.

Well, how many people here (who don't deal within criminal circles) have actually had an intruder break into their home at night? And how many of those intruders had an intent to kill? If we wanted to talk statistics and numbers, I could as easily state that you're naive for thinking someone is actually going to break into your house and try to kill you, because there's the slimmest of chance of that actually happening. Assuming, you know, you're on the up and up, which I'm sure you are.

Of course, I guess a lot of that depends on your environment too. I suppose if I lived in Dave's neighborhood I'd have a moat in my yard and .50CAL's out every window. But for my environment, for my life, no, I don't think I'm being naive at all. In fact, I think I may even be overreacting.

Actually, the more I debate this, the more I think I'd be just as good having a taser in the nightstand and say screw the shotty. Although, it still would be fun to go to the range from time to time.

[PoweredBySoy]

We've corrupted another one.........

haha. For serious... Reading Daves post made me want to quit my job and go down to his city to deal out some sweet vigilante justice. Predators like that infuriate me. I'm sure the vast majority of homicides are criminals killing other criminals, and more power to them, but those stories about gangs busting into other peoples' homes have got to stop.

Anyways, off topic...

If I get a shotgun, bird shot for the first couple rounds followed by #1 buck for good measure! Done and done.

[Super-Dave]

poweredbysoy.


Your last statement about the tazer probably gave a few of us on this site a heart attack just reading that comment. If not a heart attack maybe a few of us passed out after reading it.


I keep only 3" magnums in my shotgun and I still feel under gunned. I have really been thinking about switching to the 3.5" magnum buck shot and using the benneli super nova tactical with magazine extension.

And I live in one of the good neighborhoods in town. Me and my wife never and I mean never want to be on the other side of the bridge when the sun goes down. Like I said the vampires (thugs)come out at night.

If you go to the north side of my city and drive down certain streets you would swear you were in Mogadishu Somalia.