Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense - Page 9

Harley Quinn · September 27, 2005, 06:56 PM

I am not sure if that was a type o in 'Lead council's' last breath but it is funny. "Dead horse threat" Maybe a "Freudian slip", Thanks for the humor.

Helwan what have you decided?

Now last thoughts on this threating thread.
When you are at home and relaxing are you ploting with guns in different rooms and figure you want to kill anyone who come's into your castle?
If so you are seriously a candidate for some needed counciling, PM Lead and he will tell you all about it.

I feel that it is time to take my keyboard and address a different post or two.
I will check back later. And he wanted me to post my creditials when his are blank! LOL

Harley

panzer426 · September 27, 2005, 09:06 PM

actually no, the only time other than on this forum that I seriously think about "what if someone came into my home" is when my german shepherd barks his warning barks. when that happens it is usually because the cat made some sort of noise elsewhere in the house, a motorcycle or especially/abnormally loud car or truck just went past, or because some kids are playing in a nearby yard. so when he barks during the day I assume a friend or family member may be approaching the door (again, mother in law is far scarier than godzilla on meth) I look through the door or window depending on which room I am in, if someone is there I tell him good boy and make him lie down while I open the door, if not I tell him that its okay. all the while unarmed.
during the night if he barks I turn on the light and turn on the hall light, then proceed to check each room (unarmed, except for the dog) and turn on outside lights to peak out the windows. if I dont see anyone (always the case so far) I turn out the lights as I head back to the bedroom and assume that it was one of 2 things. #1: who knows what, but harmless and glad the dog heard it and had me check it out. or #2: possibly a potential burglar who was checking houses (or just mine) to see if anyone was home and/or if there was a dog in the house; he/she heard the dog bark and then lights came on so they probably wont be back.
The only time I carry my gun at home is when I am cleaning it, unloaded; or when I am carrying it to the car to go to the range. the only time I would ever shoot someone is if I was sure they meant me or my wife (or future children) harm. how owuld I know that? because the feirce barking of a very highly trained german shepherd did not daunt them, because my warning that I was armed and have already called the police did not daunt them, and because my locked BEDROOM (forget about locked exterior door) did not stop them. would I be upset if someone came into my home and stole my belongings? yeah, who wouldnt? if I know someone is in my house will I leave my bedroom or even leave the door open? no, unless another comes through the bedroom window and forces me out. if after warnings of a gun, warnings from the barking dog, warning that the police have already been called, and a locked bedroom door doesnt stop them I think (wont know until it happens and I pray it never does) that I will shoot. after all those warnings I will still look for a weapon in their hand/hands before I fire, possible its a deaf kid who didnt hear any of my warnings, if they have a weapon I will have to assume they mean my family serious harm and I will shoot and I will hope that the first shot drops them or atleast does enough damage that the pain and shock allows for a second shot IF necassary. Im not saying I would shoot, they fall down but are still alive and I would shoot again. I would only fire twice if the 1st shot failed to stop them (wether stop means kill or just stop). if I shoot and they live and are bleeding all over the place and in pain but no longer a threat I dont know what I would do, besides hope that the authorities are almost here and bringing an ambulance.
in my opinion, in that situation the bad guy has been given ample warning and did not heed it only because his intent was to hurt or kill me or my wife. my intent will be to stop that from happening with as much force as needed.

Harley Quinn · September 28, 2005, 07:27 AM

I think your dog has you all figured out.

Dogs that bark to much are a pain.

Get a good dog and train it not to bark, just train it to take care of you and your family, now when they growl is the time to take notice.

Fear is the thing. As FDR said, 'fear nothing but fear itself', good statement.

To control fear you have to be trained. Self training is one way, paying someone to explain it to you is another. Now train that dog to quit barking at fool things.
If you are serious train yourself.

Fear will bite you in the behind everytime, you need to control it and let it work for you. Not against.

Edit: Jeff you should care about the deputy or sheriff or police. They are the first line of defense they can change your life in a way that will be f*****
forever.
Sure the DA will file or not. What do you think he files on??
Numerous things (what took place in the first place) how does he get that information? From the police>>>LOL

Whether he can make the case stick or not is up to many combinations.
So some fear the police and other's respect them. What's your take on that?

Harley

panzer426 · September 28, 2005, 08:54 AM

hahaha harley telling me about dog behaviour, thats funny. I've personally trained protection dogs at high competition level for over 10 years. my dog doesnt bark every five minutes or even every night. believe me I know my dog a heck of a lot better than you do. and preaching about fear? if I was afraid every time he barked then I would close and lock my bedroom door and enact my plan every time. as I said I go unarmed and turn on a few lights and check outside. when he barks I am not afraid someone is in my house, but I know and trust my dog so I have to check. learn a little bit more about dog behaviour and dont just assume things about people, just because I didnt mention that he was trained (oh wait I did) you assumed he wasn't. dont assume things.
as to the original topic...if you want to take the chance that birdshot MIGHT stop the threat and save the lives of you and your loved ones then go ahead and use it. personally I value my life and my wifes far more than the life of anyone who is threatening them so I will use buckshot and warn them with my voice.

roy reali · September 28, 2005, 10:04 AM

You must also live in an area of really tough BG's. In my area, a close in shot from a 12 gague, regardless of projectiles, is very effective. I guess our wimpy BG's here just can take an ounce of lead going 1300 feet per second that well.

Harley Quinn · September 28, 2005, 10:25 AM

OK if you say so. Dogs that bark to much (and your original thread led me to believe that yours does, just by the way you wrote it) are not trained very well. If they are trained properly and this is important.

They will not bark to frighten, they will wait and scare the crap out of your would be house enterer. They will attack and maul if need be, why because that is how good security dogs are trained. Dogs are very smart especially if they are trained. Similar to humans who are trained.

I know things like this from my training, did I tell you about my training ? No! Why would I want to do that, you and others like to snicker and then say things from a far. As I have said before, give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.

So now you are a dog trainer. Right!

Thanks for the information Jeff. Do the test and get back to me will you, 10'.

Harley.

625 · September 28, 2005, 03:42 PM

leadcouncil said:

Quote:

As for the unwarranted attack on my character on another posting, that person should back up their comments or sit down.

Who are you talking about? You have gotten into pissing contests with so many people here. The more you type, the less people here seem to like you. Anyone who does a search of your postings can plainly see that you enjoy arguing.

Harley Quinn · September 28, 2005, 04:09 PM

I was over on the safe thread. LOL What a deal.

Oh well at least we have this guys # for awhile anyway. He may go covert.

Harley

625 · September 28, 2005, 04:18 PM

I doubt it. He actually seems to enjoy his little pissing contests. He MUST be a lawyer!

LOL

roy reali · September 28, 2005, 05:49 PM

I wonder how to pronounce the first part of LC's name.

LEAD can have two meannings.

Harley Quinn · September 28, 2005, 06:04 PM

I have misspelled his last part of the name on purpose, to his chagrin.
Just a little play on words that he did not like.

Well I think this thread has finally wound down, I wish Helwan would come back and check it out. LOL It has been fun.

Harley

Helwan · September 28, 2005, 08:53 PM

Hi all!! After reading 200 something posts

I believe that #4 birdshot would be fine for self defense. Since The ranges of self defesne are relatively low, the massive amount of shot would-- in my opinion-- cause a good concussion blast and injure the invader enough to put him down for good or allow me for a follow up shot if the intruder persists the attack. Well thanks for the 200 soemthing replies

- Helwan

Spinner · September 28, 2005, 11:14 PM

OK, I've been holding my tongue watching this debate rage backwards and forwards without any risk of it reaching any sensible conclusion.

I'm going to suggest something so radical that it might be considered downright heretical, but here goes anyway ....

Why not use BB birdshot???

Everyone seems to think that birdshot refers exclusively to a 1 1/8 oz load of #4s but heavy birdshot is not that much smaller than buckshot ... particularly #4 buckshot which seems to be held in very high esteem as the holy grail of optimal effectiveness without excessive penetration.

#4 buckshot is 21 pellets per ounce of 0.24" chunks of lead.
BB sized birdshot is 50 pellets per ounce of 0.18" chunks of lead.

If you can't get BB sized lead shot anymore, you can always go to steel shot and then you can go to BBB, T, F or FF sizes (0.19", 0.20", 0.22" and 0.23" pellets respectively). Yes, steel is less dense than lead (about 30% lighter) but I still would not like to be on the receiving end of 35 pellets per ounce of 0.23" sized chunks of steel coming out of a 12 ga barrel at around 1250 feet per second. At across the room type ranges I'm sure that a goose load would be more than enough to get the job done.

It might not be the best home defense solution but might allow people some peace of mind with regards the "I only used my bird shooting gun and birdshot" argument, while still carrying enough sheer grunt to get some serious damage done on the intended target.

Personally, I really don't have the option of birdshot or buckshot because I would be in deep doo doo for even presenting a firearm and waving it at an intruder .... birdshot or no. Do not take your freedoms for granted.

Harley Quinn · September 28, 2005, 11:35 PM

That is a good thought pattern.

Helwan
Nice to see you. Good decision.

Harley

roy reali · September 29, 2005, 12:40 AM

What about Remington's hevi-shot loads? Tests seem to indicate superior penetration compared to other similar sized pellets.

RE:Helwan
I guess you have the same wimpy thugs as I have around here. You seem to think that your shotgun might slow them down or stop them. Be grateful you don't live in an area that has BG's that are so big and tough that mere shotgun pellets will be deflected by their flesh. Some folks should consider RPG's for home defense. Colateral damage might me a problem, but most BG's wouldn't.

OneInchGroup · September 29, 2005, 08:24 AM

Roy,

You must have missed a couple posts. I had suggested that for those who expect the noise from racking the slide on a 12 gauge to cause the BG to flee, the initial clicks from priming a manual Claymore detonator ought to be sufficient to kill them (fear induced myocardial infarct) on the spot.
Gal that is in charge at my house has a pretty severe "NO minefields" rule, so this is an option closed to me...............

roy reali · September 29, 2005, 10:28 AM

Mines should be able to handle the really tough guys. Here is the way I look at it. If I fire a shotgun at anyone at point-blank range and they are still able to continue their attack, I will need a weapon that is beyond the small arms class. You hit someone ten feet away with a 12 gauge blast, and they come at you, are you going to try to stop them with a handgun. That is when an RPG would be needed or some well placed mines.

September 27, 2005, 06:56 PM	#201
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Helwan come on back we are over 200 post's I am not sure if that was a type o in 'Lead council's' last breath but it is funny. "Dead horse threat" Maybe a "Freudian slip", Thanks for the humor. Helwan what have you decided? Now last thoughts on this threating thread. When you are at home and relaxing are you ploting with guns in different rooms and figure you want to kill anyone who come's into your castle? If so you are seriously a candidate for some needed counciling, PM Lead and he will tell you all about it. I feel that it is time to take my keyboard and address a different post or two. I will check back later. And he wanted me to post my creditials when his are blank! LOL Harley

September 28, 2005, 07:27 AM	#203
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Panzer, Your dog is bored and wants you to get up. I think your dog has you all figured out. Dogs that bark to much are a pain. Get a good dog and train it not to bark, just train it to take care of you and your family, now when they growl is the time to take notice. Fear is the thing. As FDR said, 'fear nothing but fear itself', good statement. To control fear you have to be trained. Self training is one way, paying someone to explain it to you is another. Now train that dog to quit barking at fool things. If you are serious train yourself. Fear will bite you in the behind everytime, you need to control it and let it work for you. Not against. Edit: Jeff you should care about the deputy or sheriff or police. They are the first line of defense they can change your life in a way that will be f***** forever. Sure the DA will file or not. What do you think he files on?? Numerous things (what took place in the first place) how does he get that information? From the police>>>LOL Whether he can make the case stick or not is up to many combinations. So some fear the police and other's respect them. What's your take on that? Harley Last edited by Harley Quinn; September 28, 2005 at 08:02 AM.

September 28, 2005, 10:04 AM	#205
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:panzer426 You must also live in an area of really tough BG's. In my area, a close in shot from a 12 gague, regardless of projectiles, is very effective. I guess our wimpy BG's here just can take an ounce of lead going 1300 feet per second that well.

September 28, 2005, 10:25 AM	#206
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Panzer OK if you say so. Dogs that bark to much (and your original thread led me to believe that yours does, just by the way you wrote it) are not trained very well. If they are trained properly and this is important. They will not bark to frighten, they will wait and scare the crap out of your would be house enterer. They will attack and maul if need be, why because that is how good security dogs are trained. Dogs are very smart especially if they are trained. Similar to humans who are trained. I know things like this from my training, did I tell you about my training ? No! Why would I want to do that, you and others like to snicker and then say things from a far. As I have said before, give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. So now you are a dog trainer. Right! Thanks for the information Jeff. Do the test and get back to me will you, 10'. Harley.

September 28, 2005, 04:09 PM	#208
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	625 nice to see you I was over on the safe thread. LOL What a deal. Oh well at least we have this guys # for awhile anyway. He may go covert. Harley

September 27, 2005, 09:06 PM	#202
panzer426 Member Join Date: April 16, 2005 Posts: 78	actually no, the only time other than on this forum that I seriously think about "what if someone came into my home" is when my german shepherd barks his warning barks. when that happens it is usually because the cat made some sort of noise elsewhere in the house, a motorcycle or especially/abnormally loud car or truck just went past, or because some kids are playing in a nearby yard. so when he barks during the day I assume a friend or family member may be approaching the door (again, mother in law is far scarier than godzilla on meth) I look through the door or window depending on which room I am in, if someone is there I tell him good boy and make him lie down while I open the door, if not I tell him that its okay. all the while unarmed. during the night if he barks I turn on the light and turn on the hall light, then proceed to check each room (unarmed, except for the dog) and turn on outside lights to peak out the windows. if I dont see anyone (always the case so far) I turn out the lights as I head back to the bedroom and assume that it was one of 2 things. #1: who knows what, but harmless and glad the dog heard it and had me check it out. or #2: possibly a potential burglar who was checking houses (or just mine) to see if anyone was home and/or if there was a dog in the house; he/she heard the dog bark and then lights came on so they probably wont be back. The only time I carry my gun at home is when I am cleaning it, unloaded; or when I am carrying it to the car to go to the range. the only time I would ever shoot someone is if I was sure they meant me or my wife (or future children) harm. how owuld I know that? because the feirce barking of a very highly trained german shepherd did not daunt them, because my warning that I was armed and have already called the police did not daunt them, and because my locked BEDROOM (forget about locked exterior door) did not stop them. would I be upset if someone came into my home and stole my belongings? yeah, who wouldnt? if I know someone is in my house will I leave my bedroom or even leave the door open? no, unless another comes through the bedroom window and forces me out. if after warnings of a gun, warnings from the barking dog, warning that the police have already been called, and a locked bedroom door doesnt stop them I think (wont know until it happens and I pray it never does) that I will shoot. after all those warnings I will still look for a weapon in their hand/hands before I fire, possible its a deaf kid who didnt hear any of my warnings, if they have a weapon I will have to assume they mean my family serious harm and I will shoot and I will hope that the first shot drops them or atleast does enough damage that the pain and shock allows for a second shot IF necassary. Im not saying I would shoot, they fall down but are still alive and I would shoot again. I would only fire twice if the 1st shot failed to stop them (wether stop means kill or just stop). if I shoot and they live and are bleeding all over the place and in pain but no longer a threat I dont know what I would do, besides hope that the authorities are almost here and bringing an ambulance. in my opinion, in that situation the bad guy has been given ample warning and did not heed it only because his intent was to hurt or kill me or my wife. my intent will be to stop that from happening with as much force as needed.

September 28, 2005, 08:54 AM	#204
panzer426 Member Join Date: April 16, 2005 Posts: 78	hahaha harley telling me about dog behaviour, thats funny. I've personally trained protection dogs at high competition level for over 10 years. my dog doesnt bark every five minutes or even every night. believe me I know my dog a heck of a lot better than you do. and preaching about fear? if I was afraid every time he barked then I would close and lock my bedroom door and enact my plan every time. as I said I go unarmed and turn on a few lights and check outside. when he barks I am not afraid someone is in my house, but I know and trust my dog so I have to check. learn a little bit more about dog behaviour and dont just assume things about people, just because I didnt mention that he was trained (oh wait I did) you assumed he wasn't. dont assume things. as to the original topic...if you want to take the chance that birdshot MIGHT stop the threat and save the lives of you and your loved ones then go ahead and use it. personally I value my life and my wifes far more than the life of anyone who is threatening them so I will use buckshot and warn them with my voice.

September 28, 2005, 04:18 PM	#209
625 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2005 Location: PA Posts: 858	I doubt it. He actually seems to enjoy his little pissing contests. He MUST be a lawyer! LOL __________________ I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves. Ronald Reagan

September 28, 2005, 05:49 PM	#210
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Pronunciation I wonder how to pronounce the first part of LC's name. LEAD can have two meannings.

September 28, 2005, 06:04 PM	#211
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Yep, Roy that is why I have misspelled his last part of the name on purpose, to his chagrin. Just a little play on words that he did not like. Well I think this thread has finally wound down, I wish Helwan would come back and check it out. LOL It has been fun. Harley

September 28, 2005, 08:53 PM	#212
Helwan Member Join Date: September 10, 2005 Posts: 36	Hi all!! After reading 200 something posts I believe that #4 birdshot would be fine for self defense. Since The ranges of self defesne are relatively low, the massive amount of shot would-- in my opinion-- cause a good concussion blast and injure the invader enough to put him down for good or allow me for a follow up shot if the intruder persists the attack. Well thanks for the 200 soemthing replies - Helwan

September 28, 2005, 11:14 PM	#213
Spinner Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 35	OK, I've been holding my tongue watching this debate rage backwards and forwards without any risk of it reaching any sensible conclusion. I'm going to suggest something so radical that it might be considered downright heretical, but here goes anyway .... Why not use BB birdshot??? Everyone seems to think that birdshot refers exclusively to a 1 1/8 oz load of #4s but heavy birdshot is not that much smaller than buckshot ... particularly #4 buckshot which seems to be held in very high esteem as the holy grail of optimal effectiveness without excessive penetration. #4 buckshot is 21 pellets per ounce of 0.24" chunks of lead. BB sized birdshot is 50 pellets per ounce of 0.18" chunks of lead. If you can't get BB sized lead shot anymore, you can always go to steel shot and then you can go to BBB, T, F or FF sizes (0.19", 0.20", 0.22" and 0.23" pellets respectively). Yes, steel is less dense than lead (about 30% lighter) but I still would not like to be on the receiving end of 35 pellets per ounce of 0.23" sized chunks of steel coming out of a 12 ga barrel at around 1250 feet per second. At across the room type ranges I'm sure that a goose load would be more than enough to get the job done. It might not be the best home defense solution but might allow people some peace of mind with regards the "I only used my bird shooting gun and birdshot" argument, while still carrying enough sheer grunt to get some serious damage done on the intended target. Personally, I really don't have the option of birdshot or buckshot because I would be in deep doo doo for even presenting a firearm and waving it at an intruder .... birdshot or no. Do not take your freedoms for granted. __________________ Spinner Kia kaha

September 28, 2005, 11:35 PM	#214
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Hi Spinner That is a good thought pattern. Helwan Nice to see you. Good decision. Harley

September 29, 2005, 12:40 AM	#215
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Another Option? What about Remington's hevi-shot loads? Tests seem to indicate superior penetration compared to other similar sized pellets. RE:Helwan I guess you have the same wimpy thugs as I have around here. You seem to think that your shotgun might slow them down or stop them. Be grateful you don't live in an area that has BG's that are so big and tough that mere shotgun pellets will be deflected by their flesh. Some folks should consider RPG's for home defense. Colateral damage might me a problem, but most BG's wouldn't.

September 29, 2005, 08:24 AM	#216
OneInchGroup Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2005 Location: People's Republic of Maryland Posts: 136	Bird, Buckshot, or RPGs? Roy, You must have missed a couple posts. I had suggested that for those who expect the noise from racking the slide on a 12 gauge to cause the BG to flee, the initial clicks from priming a manual Claymore detonator ought to be sufficient to kill them (fear induced myocardial infarct) on the spot. Gal that is in charge at my house has a pretty severe "NO minefields" rule, so this is an option closed to me...............

September 29, 2005, 10:28 AM	#217
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:oneinchgroup Mines should be able to handle the really tough guys. Here is the way I look at it. If I fire a shotgun at anyone at point-blank range and they are still able to continue their attack, I will need a weapon that is beyond the small arms class. You hit someone ten feet away with a 12 gauge blast, and they come at you, are you going to try to stop them with a handgun. That is when an RPG would be needed or some well placed mines.