Dummy Rounds

[mrdaputer]

I was wondering if I could make up some dummy rounds with no primers? I have snap caps but I know where I put them. I know I can paint the bottom but I do that on ones the primer is not totally set. I know I could use a different color. Some say fill the pocket with hot glue. I figured a no primer bullet would be like dry firing? Am I wrong here is there a good reason not to do this?

[Reloadron]

I drill holes in my cases, normally two to four around the base area and have used RTV (rubber) to fill the primer pockets as well as pieces of eraser from mechanical pencils. You want something soft like an actual primer. When they get worn I just clean and replace the rubber.

Here is an example.


The cases are sized and bullets seated just as you would for a normal round.

Ron

[F. Guffey]

I do not make dummy rounds; I have drilled out the flash hole when making transfers as in transferring a chamber dimension from the chamber to a seating die and or gage.

I size and or form cases to length from the shoulder to the cases head in sets. A good set would include cases for short chambers and long chambers. The longest case I formed was .026" longer than a full length sized/minimum length case from the shoulder to the case head. For a 30/06 case the .026" case would be .021" longer from the shoulder to the case head than a go-gage length case from the shoulder to the case head.

F. Guffey

[mrdaputer]

What is the difference between no primer and a regular dry fire? Not trying to be snarky just trying to understand. What I am trying to do is mix in some dummy rounds with the live rounds so when I load them I have no clue if the next mag will have a click instead of a bang.

[Reloadron]

From out friends at SAAMI:
DRY FIRING
The releasing of the firing-pin on an unloaded chamber of a firearm.
ALSO OUR FRIENDS AT WIKI:
Dry firing is the practice of "firing" a firearm without ammunition or practicing the manipulation of a firearm with an inert training platform such as a SIRT, Laserlyte, or LaserAmmo training firearm.

Now with those definitions in mind we really don't need a "dummy round" or "dummy cartridge" to dry fire a gun. Normally dummy rounds can be used to check how a gun cycles. Just as an example the dummy rounds I posted earlier after being finished could be used if I want to test the manual operation of my 308 bolt gun or my M1A.

A word from the NRA:
Myth 5: Dry-Firing A Gun Is Harmful

"To be fair, this is sometimes true. Dry-firing most centerfire rifles and handguns is perfectly safe once you have made certain they are unloaded and pointed in a safe direction. However, excessively dry-firing a rimfire gun is a bad idea. The firing pin of a centerfire gun is designed to strike a primer located in the center of a cartridge's base. When no cartridge is present, the firing pin strikes nothing. With a rimfire, though, the firing pin is positioned to strike the soft brass rim of the cartridge. When no cartridge is present, the firing pin strikes the hard steel of the breechface. Repeated dry-firing of a rimfire can eventually peen the firing pin, dulling it and causing misfires. Dry-firing offers convenient, easy practice, but if you are going to dry-fire a rimfire gun, invest in some snap caps first. These dummy rounds will cushion the firing pin's fall".

You can dry fire a gun less having a dummy cartridge in the gun. However, keep in mind, that is not true of all guns. Also, as I mentioned earlier, when making dummy rounds I like haveing something soft in the primer pockets so the firing pins have something to hit about the consistency of a primer.

Does that answer your question?

Ron

[44 AMP]

The firing pin of a centerfire gun is designed to strike a primer located in the center of a cartridge's base. When no cartridge is present, the firing pin strikes nothing.

While this is correct, a bit of further explanation is in order. The firing pin actually does strike something, your gun. When there is no primer to be struck, the pin goes a bit further, until it is stopped by "striking" some part of the gun. USUALLY its a shoulder on the firing pin, striking the rear of the boltface. But different gun designs different. The point here is that with no cartridge or snap cap in place, the firing pin stops when metal hits metal.

SOMETIMES this can be a problem, over time. Again, it depends on the gun, its design, and the materials involved. Some guns are made to take thousands on thousands of "snaps" (without caps) and suffer no ill effects.

Other guns, especially old guns, (and notably old shotguns) are not as "durable" in this aspect, and a lot of snapping can lead to crystallization in the metal, and firing pins breaking, even though they "hit nothing".

If possible, check with the maker, and see what they say. I have a Ruger Blackhawk manual that specifically says "Dry firing will not harm this gun".

I also have a 109 year old shotgun that if I ever caught any one "snapping" I'd feed them a different, less sentimentally valuable gun, butt first!!

Having NOTHING in the primer pocket is the same as having nothing in the chamber, far as the firing pin is concerned. Something with a degree of elasticity is best. Glue, hard rubber, plastic, lots of options, but having something there for the firing pin to strike is the best thing.

Dummy rounds can be used as snap caps, but be aware the reverse is not always true.

[mrdaputer]

Thank you for your response and patience. In my op I should have posted it differently.

I have a Walther PPQ M1 which is safe to dry fire. If I shoot a bullet with mo primer will that cause problems. To be safe I will just clean some spent casings and not deprime them. Load just the bullet no powder and dab a little red so I know the differece between a dummy and a dud. Thank you for your help

[higgite]

I like Reloadron's idea of drilling holes in the case that don't interfere with function. That's a "marker" that won't wear off.

[mikld]

If you load some dummies, w/o primers there's no need to paint/color them. They'll be easy to identify, 'cause they are the ones with no primer...

I make dummies for all the cartridges I reload and I have dummies for all bullets I reload...

[GWS]

I guess I believed the myth.....I've made lots of snap caps by driving sharpened brass tubing into a soft white plastic eraser....then slicing the resulting eraser dowel with a razor blade to the depth I want (same as a primer) Then I press the eraser pieces into the primer cavity.

I guarantee that primer pins striking the eraser-primers don't get hurt. Plus the white primers are all the markings I need.

[cw308]

If I would make dummy rounds instead of snap caps. I would size a fired case , keep the fired primer in place , I shoot Sierra 168 MK . For the dummy rounds I would use the tipped bullets as a dummy like Hornady A - Max . Size the case with .001 case space .

[F. Guffey]

Again, I do not make dummy rounds, when I make chamber length gages I keep them in order by keeping them in a foam block separator with the fiber box. If what I do involves someone else I use an electric engraver.

When using the foam blocks I wrap the block with masking take and then write the dimensions on the corresponding hole.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

Dry fire vs Dummy Rounds.
'Dummy' has no functioning primer or propellent.
'Dry Fire', same as above but has an energy absorbing 'Bumper' for firing pin to strike.

Some (particularly older firearms) have a tapered firing pin and will move too far forward, jam in the firing pin hole.
This can quite easily cause one of two conditions, the first being a firing pin protruding and hitting the primer of the first round chambered after dry firing.
The second is a broken firing pin, usually with nose still stuck in guide hole.

Anyone that's ever shoot an old revolver knows firing pin attached directly to hammer, many were solidly fixed to the hammer.
These firing pins needed to pass through the frame at the rear of the cylinder to strike the primer.
They would often jam in the hole of there was no primer/cartridge to limit the hammer/firing pin forward travel.

Almost all early inertia firing pins had tapered guide holes and tapered firing pins, no direct positive stop for the firing pin. (Inertia firing pin, shorter than the distance between hammer & primer, hammer strikes firing pin, firing pin inertia carries through to strike primer)

Tapered guide holes, the first thing I think of is early 1903 Springfield's, while square shoulders for positive stop were added, the early versions used the civilian Mauser design and could jam the firing pin in the guide hole.
I ran into several of these early on in my career, 1903 Springfield action was VERY popular with builders, and when a firing pin broke, they saw a gunsmith for replacement...

Military Mauser had a slotted, square shoulder positive stop, a VAST improvement over the early civilian Mauser. The firing pin had to be properly timed for shoulder to fit in the slots on the bolt, but it couldn't be side loaded or over extended.

[Unclenick]

Dummies vs snap caps.

The reason dummies have holes drilled in them is so they may be identified at a glance without picking them up. As such, an instructor is able to see dummies are being loaded by a trainee without interfering with the trainee's actions.

The military has a gauge that looks like a steel cartridge case and the "primer pocket" in it is for calibrated soft copper slugs. The indentation the pin makes in the slug is a measure of firing pin energy. The firing pin is not as soft as the copper, of course, so this works well.

I have drilled and tapped flashholes to accept a softened solid copper screw for this reason. Just heat the screw to red hot and quench it to get it dead soft and clean it off in acid. Apply Loctite to the threads in the case and start the screw in from the mouth of the case and bring it nearly flush with the head. If the metal scares you, a Nylon screw may be used. Also, be aware that once the copper gets beat up enough, you may be back to nothing really stopping the firing pin and that you may want to drive the screw in deeper and file it flush at the head when it gets too beat up.

[cw308]

Dummy rounds , I use to use dummy rounds to check for flinching . I would mix one or two in with the rounds I was shooting . No powder fired primer , I load one round & fire ,bullets are pointed up in my ammo box so I don't look at the primers . It's a good test for a flinch .

[JeepHammer]

Military has 'Inert' rounds, which are for training, and usually painted blue,
Military has 'Cycling Test' rounds, often made of steel with 'Projectile' welded to the case.
Inert rounds shouldn't be used for Cycling Tests because Inert 'Projectile' will separate from case with repeated use, leaving projectile stuck in weapon.

Some 'Guns' (weapons systems) fire at rates above 3,000 rounds a minute, you think your rifle extracts violently, you should check out the g force produced by high speed hard mechanical linkage.

I never saw the name 'Dummy' on anything over 16 years.

Snap Caps were used in magazines to check for both flinching & failure to fire cycling drills.
Our Snap Caps were from the civilian market, but approved by the Corps for use, so it had to be the correct tool for the job.

[mrdaputer]

cw308 that is exactly why I made some up. My brother has a bad flinch problem. I have snap caps but when you load your own you have a idea where they are at. This way he can just toss about ten of them in his ammo box of about 100. Some mags will all go boom some will click and reveal his flinch.

[F. Guffey]

And then the English made darters; to improve skill and save ammo we used a system that involved one soldier setting on a box with a target on the front of it, in the soldier's hand was stick with a black bullseye attached. The objective of the exercise was for the 'other shoulder;, while taking aim at the target to direct the placement of the black bullseye based on the aiming patters .

Finally; there was a hole in the black bullseye, the purpose of the hole was for marking the target. At the end of the day a good score would be one pencil mark for 3 attempts.

A lot of shooters missed this class, I can only guess it was not noisy enough.

F. Guffey

[higgite]

That certainly clears it up for me.

[cw308]

higgite
You made me laugh out loud .

[F. Guffey]

That certainly clears it up for me.

"The Hollifield Dotter Sub-target device"

Search for the Hollifield Dotter, they are listed on EBAY and there are images.

higgite
You made me laugh out loud .

F. Guffey

[cw308]

F. Guffey
Hollifield Dotter , never heard of it . Learn something new every day . Thank You.

Chris

[F. Guffey]

An author of detective stories and the author of stories about jungles, snakes and mongooses were in South Africa during the Boar wars. As the story goes it did not go well for the British, the two authors knew England was not going to do anything about their 303 rifle so the two authors started a program that improved the soldiers ability to aim it.

The Dutch were using Mausers chambered to 7MM57; because the British could not beat the farmers nearby (neighbor) they passed laws making it illegal to ship Mausers to the Orange Free State.

And the question is never asked about who trained the farmers to shoot. We all know they had to be able to see.

F. Guffey

[higgite]

What was their position on dummy rounds?

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by JeepHammer

I never saw the name 'Dummy' on anything over 16 years.

It's unlikely the word "dummy" sounds official enough for military nomenclature, but its' use is still pretty wide-spread. Here's the Wikipedia entry. Brownells uses it in quotation marks to describe their line of plastic training cartridges. The NRA training supplies catalog uses the term. There is even a site called "dummybullet.com" devoted to dummy cartridges (despite the name; which doesn't speak well to the owner's terminology acumen). However, the term is not in SAAMI's glossary, so I doubt it sees much official use. It's probably too easy to confuse with live ammunition intended for shooting up mannequins.