Bullet redesign/ creation

kealil · October 21, 2011, 01:22 PM

Hey all,
I've been loading for a couple months now and have been daydreaming about my own bullet types and the creation of said bullets.

I want to start developing these special bullets but I don't know the legality of it. What are the rules for creating your own type of bullets? I remember reading about a round called " black rhino" that seemed to get people in trouble.

Any advice? Also, I know I'm being vague but I only have an iota of an idea right now and want to gauge the legality of this before I devote any energy to it.

Thanks ahead of time

rjrivero · October 21, 2011, 01:33 PM

The Black Rhino, if I remember is like the Unicorn. Much talked about, some say they saw it, but never really amounted to anything.

The thing about building a better bullet is that it can be a double edged sword. If your bullet design functions well, it causes the black rhino type hysteria. If it doesn't work well, it's another "marketing gimmick."

Without knowing your specifics: Exploding bullets are a no no. Bullets that penetrate body armor seem to cause heartburn. (Although I don't really get that part. Most Deer Hunting rounds turn kevlar into tissue paper anyway!) Fragmenting bullets are okay, as long as they are touted as "safety slugs" and don't penetrate anything.

Sevens · October 21, 2011, 01:37 PM

I don't think you have any real issues until you elect to sell your hand-crafted product. At that point, you need a Federal manufacturer's license and it comes with all sorts of glorious fees and taxes.

FrankenMauser · October 21, 2011, 05:05 PM

As long as it doesn't qualify as armor-piercing, incendiary, or anything else that is regulated; and you don't sell them; you can make anything you want.

If you hope to sell them...
You need to look into getting an 06 FFL, liability insurance, business license, etc. ...And you won't make any money at it, so long as it's a hobby.

Jim243 · October 21, 2011, 06:16 PM

I am not aware of any FFL requirements for the production of bullets, loaded ammo yes, but bullets and copper cases not sure one is needed. Yes, you will need to meet EPA and OSHA requirements but ATF not sure.

Jim

dunerjeff · October 21, 2011, 06:59 PM

I think making and selling bullets are just like any other business.It's when you start assembling the parts that permits come in to crush your dreams.

GP100man · October 21, 2011, 09:18 PM

That`s what it comes down to fellers !!!

If you manufacture anything & sell it in a business like manner ya better have ya license !!!

In this case ammo & parts to assemble ammo is the same thing !!

Do a search , there`s been many threads on this exact subject !!!!

006 FFL is the 1 needed .

Robert Palermo · October 23, 2011, 01:01 PM

You need a class 06 liscence from BATF. Manufacture of any of the componet parts like bullets, brass, powder, and primers are all classified as ammunition mfg and must have the 06FFL.
If you are manufacturing pistol bullets or rifle bullets that can be used in pistol/rifles like .223 and 7.62x39 and similar crossovers, cannot be made from the 7 deadly metals as listed in the FFL guide. Tungsten, steel, berrilium copper, depleted uranium, brass, bronze and one more that I can't remember right now.
The bullets core or if made solid cannot use these metals. Even PMC when they made their famous cookie cutter bullet from hollow copper was outlawed even though they claimed the bullet wouldn't defeat body armour. That was a non-issue as far as the BATF was concened.

armoredman · October 23, 2011, 01:46 PM

The only easy way to make bullets the way you like 'em, is to come up with a cast design, and have Lyman or NOE make you a mold to your specifications. Not real cheap, but easy, cast away.

FrankenMauser · October 23, 2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

I am not aware of any FFL requirements for the production of bullets, loaded ammo yes, but bullets and copper cases not sure one is needed. Yes, you will need to meet EPA and OSHA requirements but ATF not sure.

For personal use, you don't need any licenses.

But, when producing them for sale... a bullet is "ammunition", as defined by the ATF. Since you must have an 06 (or better) FFL to manufacture ammunition for sale; you must have an 06 (or better) FFL to manufacture bullets for sale. In the eyes of the ATF, they are one, and the same.

kealil · October 24, 2011, 04:43 PM

Ok, sounds like I'd be in the clear if I made it for my own personal use(which it is). I plan figuring up a bullet that would be essentially a ball round but split into four projectiles after firing. I wanna call the round the four horsemen.

davery25 · October 24, 2011, 06:39 PM

sweet, is this thing jacketed?

October 21, 2011, 01:22 PM	#1
kealil Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Posts: 270	Bullet redesign/ creation Hey all, I've been loading for a couple months now and have been daydreaming about my own bullet types and the creation of said bullets. I want to start developing these special bullets but I don't know the legality of it. What are the rules for creating your own type of bullets? I remember reading about a round called " black rhino" that seemed to get people in trouble. Any advice? Also, I know I'm being vague but I only have an iota of an idea right now and want to gauge the legality of this before I devote any energy to it. Thanks ahead of time

October 21, 2011, 01:37 PM	#3
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I don't think you have any real issues until you elect to sell your hand-crafted product. At that point, you need a Federal manufacturer's license and it comes with all sorts of glorious fees and taxes. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 21, 2011, 05:05 PM	#4
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	As long as it doesn't qualify as armor-piercing, incendiary, or anything else that is regulated; and you don't sell them; you can make anything you want. If you hope to sell them... You need to look into getting an 06 FFL, liability insurance, business license, etc. ...And you won't make any money at it, so long as it's a hobby. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

October 21, 2011, 06:16 PM	#5
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	I am not aware of any FFL requirements for the production of bullets, loaded ammo yes, but bullets and copper cases not sure one is needed. Yes, you will need to meet EPA and OSHA requirements but ATF not sure. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

October 21, 2011, 09:18 PM	#7
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	Sellin stuff for money !!! That`s what it comes down to fellers !!! If you manufacture anything & sell it in a business like manner ya better have ya license !!! In this case ammo & parts to assemble ammo is the same thing !! Do a search , there`s been many threads on this exact subject !!!! 006 FFL is the 1 needed . __________________ GP100man

October 21, 2011, 01:33 PM	#2
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	The Black Rhino, if I remember is like the Unicorn. Much talked about, some say they saw it, but never really amounted to anything. The thing about building a better bullet is that it can be a double edged sword. If your bullet design functions well, it causes the black rhino type hysteria. If it doesn't work well, it's another "marketing gimmick." Without knowing your specifics: Exploding bullets are a no no. Bullets that penetrate body armor seem to cause heartburn. (Although I don't really get that part. Most Deer Hunting rounds turn kevlar into tissue paper anyway!) Fragmenting bullets are okay, as long as they are touted as "safety slugs" and don't penetrate anything.

October 21, 2011, 06:59 PM	#6
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	I think making and selling bullets are just like any other business.It's when you start assembling the parts that permits come in to crush your dreams.

October 23, 2011, 01:01 PM	#8
Robert Palermo Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: Home of the Steelers Posts: 56	You need a class 06 liscence from BATF. Manufacture of any of the componet parts like bullets, brass, powder, and primers are all classified as ammunition mfg and must have the 06FFL. If you are manufacturing pistol bullets or rifle bullets that can be used in pistol/rifles like .223 and 7.62x39 and similar crossovers, cannot be made from the 7 deadly metals as listed in the FFL guide. Tungsten, steel, berrilium copper, depleted uranium, brass, bronze and one more that I can't remember right now. The bullets core or if made solid cannot use these metals. Even PMC when they made their famous cookie cutter bullet from hollow copper was outlawed even though they claimed the bullet wouldn't defeat body armour. That was a non-issue as far as the BATF was concened. __________________ www.pennbullets.com Last edited by Robert Palermo; October 23, 2011 at 01:11 PM.

October 23, 2011, 01:46 PM	#9
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	The only easy way to make bullets the way you like 'em, is to come up with a cast design, and have Lyman or NOE make you a mold to your specifications. Not real cheap, but easy, cast away.

October 24, 2011, 04:43 PM	#11
kealil Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Posts: 270	Ok, sounds like I'd be in the clear if I made it for my own personal use(which it is). I plan figuring up a bullet that would be essentially a ball round but split into four projectiles after firing. I wanna call the round the four horsemen.

October 24, 2011, 06:39 PM	#12
davery25 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 318	sweet, is this thing jacketed?