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Old August 9, 2017, 12:56 PM   #1
disseminator
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Problems with +P ammo in the 9mm Shield?

So I have owned a 9mm Shield pistol since they came out and have many hundreds of standard and +pressure ammo through mine.

I was over on the Starline Brass website and under their listing for 9mm brass they state that they don't recommend it in the 9mm Shield for full pressure or plus pressure due to lack of case head support.

This is the first I have heard of that, have I been in the dark these last few years or??????
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Old August 9, 2017, 12:58 PM   #2
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What does the manual say?


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Old August 9, 2017, 01:16 PM   #3
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Quote:
""Plus-P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety. Use of "Plus-P" ammunition may result in the need for more frequent service."
Clear as mud.
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Old August 9, 2017, 01:43 PM   #4
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The long and short is that + p is only known to be safe in pistols marked or factory designated as +p. Its probably safe in most modern ones, but they are not tested with it. You roll the dice.
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Old August 9, 2017, 01:54 PM   #5
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The warning is for Starline 9mm brass. It might not be as strong in the unsupported region as other brands of brass.

Whether it applies to all brands of brass is less certain.
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Old August 9, 2017, 01:56 PM   #6
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Right, I am more interested in any perceived issue with the Shield pistol as I have never heard this before and Starline isn't just some random BLOG IMO. Here is what they say:

Quote:
**NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN S&W SHIELD PISTOLS WITH NEAR-MAX OR +P LOADS, DUE TO POORLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER CONDITION**
Note that they are saying even standard pressure loads near full pressure (35000) are not recommended. That seems ridiculous to me but Starline should have some credibility in regard to brass I'd think.
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Old August 9, 2017, 02:03 PM   #7
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see these links...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...ing-cases.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...p9-shield.html

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a...t-1183213.html
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Old August 9, 2017, 02:43 PM   #8
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Interesting... Thanks for posting those links. It's funny I have never heard of this and I must be one of the lucky ones with an in-spec chamber.

I think I'll drag my Shield out to the range tonight and check it out anyways...
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Old August 9, 2017, 02:46 PM   #9
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Not all brands of brass are created equal. Some are very strong in the unsupported region, some are not.

As noted in those posts, some brands demonstrate excessive case bulge in the unsupported region while others don't.
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Old August 9, 2017, 02:55 PM   #10
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"...applies to all brands of brass..." +P brass is the same as non +P brass. It's the firearm that matters.
No mention of +P and the Shield on Smith's site.
A lack of case head support would apply to any load too.
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Old August 9, 2017, 03:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
"...applies to all brands of brass..." +P brass is the same as non +P brass. It's the firearm that matters. WRONG
No mention of +P and the Shield on Smith's site.
A lack of case head support would apply to any load too. WRONG
More misinformation!
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Old August 9, 2017, 09:34 PM   #12
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So I went to the range, and shot 100 rounds of handloaded 124 and 147 grain ammo through my shield: no problems encountered. The 147 is loaded to about 1000 fps and the 124 to 1200 but at standard pressure. No problems with either load.

No bulges whatsoever.
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Old August 9, 2017, 10:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
So I went to the range, and shot 100 rounds of handloaded 124 and 147 grain ammo through my shield: no problems encountered. The 147 is loaded to about 1000 fps and the 124 to 1200 but at standard pressure. No problems with either load.

No bulges whatsoever.

Awesome. What brand(s) of brass were you using?
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Old August 10, 2017, 09:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Awesome. What brand(s) of brass were you using?
Range pick-ups. Random head stamps.
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Old August 14, 2017, 10:20 AM   #15
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+P ammo is the same standard ammo that us old timers where shooting back in the days before SAAMI started screwing with the ammo pressure standards.
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Old August 14, 2017, 11:16 AM   #16
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I'm not sure about that as Browning High Power originally was not made for +P but when they changed things along with making a 40 S&W version they said it was OK for 9mm+P.
That was the case that the greater pounding from higher pressure would eventually damage the gun. Other guns have had similar problems.
There definitely is a difference in hardness between different brands of cases. In fact cartridges made for full auto guns have harder and thicker cases .Gov't ammo of things like 223, 308 , 9mm have better cases.
Early Glock pistols had less case head support ,but that was changed . With that was a change in the Federal cases - thicker and harder .
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Old August 17, 2017, 09:38 PM   #17
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After getting a little curious I checked ammo recommendations for most of the plaskit guns, HK was the only one to say that their products would fire Nato ammo safely. I don't like HK so I'm still looking for an EDC.
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Old August 17, 2017, 10:35 PM   #18
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Think it might be because Starline specializes in selling brass to reloaders? In other words, it may never be a problem for those shooting factory ammo/brass one time. But if your gun is bulging cases, it may not be safe to load that brass a bunch of times. ??
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Old August 18, 2017, 08:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron bottom
After getting a little curious I checked ammo recommendations for most of the plaskit guns, HK was the only one to say that their products would fire Nato ammo safely.
They may be the only ones to EXPLICITLY say that their pistols will fire NATO ammo safely. However, with many other pistols, you have to know how to read between the lines.

If you read the ammunition recommendations in many pistol owner's manuals, you'll often find a statement reading something like this.
Quote:
The Estrella XR9 is designed to function properly using 9x19mm or 9mm Parabellum ammunition meeting accepted industry standards.
NATO specs are an accepted industry standard, as are SAAMI and CIP specs. Additionally, there is a SAAMI specification for 9mm+P, so it also meets industry standards.

Unless the manual specifically says NOT to use +P or NATO ammunition, or says that the pistol should be fired ONLY with SAAMI/CIP standard-pressure ammo, +P or NATO can generally be assumed to be within safe operating parameters.

OTOH there is NOT an industry standard for +P+ ammo, so it should only be used if the manufacturer specifically says that it's safe, or if the shooter chooses to risk his own safety and his pistol's physical integrity.

Also, understand that +P or NATO ammo is typically hotter than standard-pressure ammo by definition, and it will theoretically cause premature wear in ANY pistol. How soon that wear will cause significant problems is the question.
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Old August 18, 2017, 05:28 PM   #20
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Well this is what it says in the link...

Quote:
9mm brass: also known as 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger and 9x19mm. This cartridge is now one of the most popular pistol cartridges in the world. **NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN S&W SHIELD PISTOLS WITH NEAR-MAX OR +P LOADS, DUE TO POORLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER CONDITION**
So don't use Starline brass in your Shield at max standard pressure or +P.

Besides if your shooting a lot of +P or +P+ ammo in your guns your wasting a good deal of money.

I doubt very much that anything will happen other than what you already know will happen...accelerated wear.

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Old August 18, 2017, 10:07 PM   #21
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I was surprised to see that firing a round that were +P Saami spec were not recommended and were said to accelerate wear and tear. Sounded to me that maybe the plaskit guns that many are swooning over were really light duty firearms. YMMV.

I have some Hirtenburger sub gun ammo I wanted to try in a plaskit gun I have. A Sig P- 226 handled it (although the sub gun ammo really slapped the Sig slide around though) ok. Oh well, just another fine idea laid to rest.
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Old August 18, 2017, 10:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Sounded to me that maybe the plaskit guns that many are swooning over were really light duty firearms. YMMV.
Not really.
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Old August 19, 2017, 01:57 AM   #23
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Here's a link to the manual for the Shield. The bulk of the discussion on the ammo to be used is on page 9 and 10.

https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sit...1310000_WC.pdf

Quote:
WARNING: NEVER USE AMMUNITION NOT SPECIFICALLY
DESIGNATED FOR USE IN YOUR FIREARM.
FAILURE TO USE THE CORRECT TYPE OR CALIBER
OF AMMUNITION MAY CAUSE THE FIREARM TO JAM, OR
FAIL TO FIRE, OR MAY GENERATE EXCESSIVE PRESSURE
WHICH CAN DAMAGE OR EVEN RUPTURE YOUR FIREARM,
CAUSING PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH TO THE SHOOTER
OR BYSTANDERS.
• Locate the cartridge designation
marked on the firearm.
This information indicates the
correct ammunition that must
be used in this firearm
(FIGURE 1).
• You are responsible for
selecting ammunition that
meets industry standards
and is appropriate in type
and caliber for this firearm.
There's a bit more. Folks should look at it.

Nowhere does it say not to use +P ammo.

Basically it says that if the ammo is right for the gun and within SAMMI pressure specs then it's allright to use but that use also have to use your judgement on what is good for you and the gun.

Quote:
Sounded to me that maybe the plaskit guns that many are swooning over were really light duty firearms.
The Shield is a small light weight back up or hide out piece. I don't think anyone considers it a heavy duty weapon. If that's what you're getting at.

On the other hand polymer framed firearms have well proven themselves in over 30 years of use.

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Old August 19, 2017, 09:07 AM   #24
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If the shield won't handle +P, it's trash.
I've never shot any commercial +P 9mm that gave any pressure indications at all.
The only commercial 9mm I've shot that did was Federal +P+ TCFMJ 124gn, which exhibited catered primers.
I shot Ranger +P+ 127gn in several 9mm's over the years...Glock 17 and 26, Beretta 92FS, Browning hipower,
...none showed any issues shooting that load.
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Old August 19, 2017, 10:24 AM   #25
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Why would you think it won't "handle" +P?

It's useful to read this thread...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...ing-cases.html

The threads linked to above and the warning from Starline say that there doesn't seem to be as much case support for the 9mm ammo in the barrel of the Shield as there may be in some other guns. This means that the case bulges after being fired. So an improperly sized reload or some poorly made 9mm ammo cases may not properly fit. It also means that case life will be limited if you reload.

The only one's to say it won't, far as I know, is Starline brass. That warning has more to do with Starline brass and the case support that the Shield provides, than it does with the Shield. Or at least it reads that way.

I have not read of any "Ka-Booms" as a result of this. Glock had it's issues with the 40 S&W and lack of chamber support some years back. I have not heard of this with the Shield in 9mm.

Might be useful to ask Starline about that.

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Last edited by tipoc; August 19, 2017 at 10:38 AM.
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