Sub 1" MOA with Wolf Polyformance Ammunition

rjinga · July 22, 2017, 04:58 PM

Does this count? These were my first three shots, one after the other, at 30 meters. I was shooting Wolf Polyformance steel-cased ammunition out of my PTR 91, GI model, using iron sights.

precision_shooter · July 23, 2017, 09:08 PM

Nice shooting.

Just a point of education/clarification because I see many people lately using this term.

"Sub 1" MOA" is a statement that contradicts itself.
1" is a measurement and 1 MOA is a measurement independent of each other.
You can have a sub 1" group or a sub MOA group. The units of measure are not interchangeable which is why they have their own names, inch and MOA (minute of angle).

While the size of 1" remains constant at any distance, the size of MOA changes based on distance. It is common for people to use MOA and Inch interchangeably at a fixed distance of 100 yards, but MOA size changes based on distance while inch is constant.

1" at 100 yards is 1". 1" at 30 yards is still 1".
1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047". 1 MOA at 30 yards is 0.3141".

Since you are measuring in meters, we have to convert meters to yards to figure MOA.
100 yards is 91.44 meters and 30 meters is 32.8084 yards.
So 1 MOA at 30 meters = 0.3435".

Post meant to be educational, and hopefully helps others to not use two units of measure to be the same thing.

rjinga · July 24, 2017, 12:13 AM

Thank you for the clarification. I just corrected the thread title.

bamaranger · July 24, 2017, 01:00 AM

So, had you shot that size group at 100 yds, it would be sub MOA. However, since said group was shot at appx 30 yds, it is roughly 3 MOA. It would appear your rifle is likely capable of groups, with that ammo, at 100 yds, that would be in the neighborhood of 3".

I would consider that an acceptable degree of accuracy /group given the type of rifle and the import ammo.

But it's not sub MOA.

FrankenMauser · July 24, 2017, 01:12 AM

That's fine, as long as you only ever want to consider those first three shots and ignore the rest.

What we have here, is the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

For more entertainment, check out the video version: Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

About a year ago, I fired a 15-round group with a customized Marlin .336 .30-30, during testing. I went for 15-rounds, because I wanted a reasonable data set, not the almost useless 3-shots.
It was fantastic!
I fired a one-hole group.
...Except I didn't. I may have put 11 of the rounds through the same hole, for a group size of less than .250", but the other four opened the whole thing up to over 2.5".

We can cherry-pick all day long; but we're lying to ourselves more than we are to other people.

Shoot real groups. Look at the reality of the situation. Go from there.
(Crap ammo is crap.)

tobnpr · July 24, 2017, 09:08 PM

Lol...
I'm terrible with irons...But I bet with a full mag from an AK I can get a few holes to touch.

It takes match grade ammo to isolate the accuracy of the hardware from the ammo. Get a box each of Federal Gold Medal Match, and Black Hills. Shoot from a good rest, five shot groups, keep the barrel cool.

Compare to what you get from the Wolf. Now, most of us can't afford to shoot 100 rounds of Black Hills on every range trip...Which is why we handload...

rjinga · July 25, 2017, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

That's fine, as long as you only ever want to consider those first three shots and ignore the rest.

I know that. I was poking fun at the folks who put together one good 3-shot group, out of who knows how many rounds fired, and from that point forward, henceforth and forevermore, they "can shoot sub-MOA groups with that rifle." I typically shoot at least five rounds, and often 10, in my groups. I was checking my shots with binoculars, so I knew I already had that tight 3-shot group before I "messed it up" by firing the 4th and 5th shots.

T. O'Heir · July 25, 2017, 01:25 PM

1 MOA is 1" at 100 yards. Mind you, 3" at 100 with low end ammo and a rifle that wasn't made for great accuracy, isn't ugly.
30 is too close though. Make some sand bags and shoot at 100.

Slamfire · July 25, 2017, 03:02 PM

Even though the PTR 91 barrels are better than any screwed on a military issue service rifle, these things are not capable of MOA or sub MOA as sold. Maybe if the barrel was free floated from the handguard, maybe some other things, this could be made into a target rifle.

I have taken my PTR out to 100 and 200 yards, the five shot groups are probably biased as I would have only kept the best, the 200 yard group is closer to what these rifles are capable of with ball ammunition. About six inches at 200 yards.

100 yards Australian Ball:

100 yards Australian ball:

rjinga · July 25, 2017, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamaranger

So, had you shot that size group at 100 yds, it would be sub MOA. However, since said group was shot at appx 30 yds, it is roughly 3 MOA.

Just trying to be accurate, and not argumentative. However, that statement is incorrect. A max spread of 0.327 of an inch at 32.8 yards equals an MOA of 0.952.

rjinga · July 25, 2017, 05:22 PM

Ok, how about this then:

Yesterday, I wanted to adjust my windage after shooting at 200, 300, and 400 yds. I also wanted to save my last box of better ammo for the steel silhouette at 400 yds. So, I fired Wolf ammo at a target at 100 yds for my windage adjustments. (Yeah I know it's crappy, and it's a different ammo, etc.)

Anyway, I fired one shot (outside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage after that one shot.

Then, I fired the three shots one after the other (inside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage again after those shots.

Next, I fired another single shot (just on the edge of the red square at 3:00). I made one more slight windage adjustment.

And then, I fired the last shot (just inside the 1" bulls-eye at 12:00).

In my mind, those are four separate and distinct shooting events. To me, it is no different than if I had a single sheet of paper with four smaller targets on it: fire one shot, change POA; fire three shots, change POA; fire one shot, change POA, fire last shot.

ed308 · July 27, 2017, 07:58 PM

When I shoot to see how a barrel or ammo groups, I use a 5 shoot group. With that said, any rifle that will shoot .48 MOA with Wolf ammo in a 5 shoot group is a keeper. I've never found Wolf ammo to be very accurate. And I've tried in a SKS, AK47, .223/5.56 AR, .308 AR, .40 cal and .45 cal. Dirty ammo IMO. But your mileage my vary.

July 22, 2017, 04:58 PM	#1
rjinga Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2012 Location: N. E. Georgia Posts: 512	Sub MOA with Wolf Polyformance Ammunition Does this count? These were my first three shots, one after the other, at 30 meters. I was shooting Wolf Polyformance steel-cased ammunition out of my PTR 91, GI model, using iron sights. __________________ "Yo homie. Is that my briefcase?" Sig Sauer P229 SAS GEN 2 E2 9mm; PTR 91, GI model; Chinese Type 56 SKS; Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm Last edited by rjinga; July 24, 2017 at 12:14 AM.

July 23, 2017, 09:08 PM	#2
precision_shooter Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 2,475	Nice shooting. Just a point of education/clarification because I see many people lately using this term. "Sub 1" MOA" is a statement that contradicts itself. 1" is a measurement and 1 MOA is a measurement independent of each other. You can have a sub 1" group or a sub MOA group. The units of measure are not interchangeable which is why they have their own names, inch and MOA (minute of angle). While the size of 1" remains constant at any distance, the size of MOA changes based on distance. It is common for people to use MOA and Inch interchangeably at a fixed distance of 100 yards, but MOA size changes based on distance while inch is constant. 1" at 100 yards is 1". 1" at 30 yards is still 1". 1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047". 1 MOA at 30 yards is 0.3141". Since you are measuring in meters, we have to convert meters to yards to figure MOA. 100 yards is 91.44 meters and 30 meters is 32.8084 yards. So 1 MOA at 30 meters = 0.3435". Post meant to be educational, and hopefully helps others to not use two units of measure to be the same thing. __________________ "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1776

July 24, 2017, 12:13 AM	#3
rjinga Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2012 Location: N. E. Georgia Posts: 512	Thank you for the clarification. I just corrected the thread title. __________________ "Yo homie. Is that my briefcase?" Sig Sauer P229 SAS GEN 2 E2 9mm; PTR 91, GI model; Chinese Type 56 SKS; Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm

July 24, 2017, 01:00 AM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	further translation So, had you shot that size group at 100 yds, it would be sub MOA. However, since said group was shot at appx 30 yds, it is roughly 3 MOA. It would appear your rifle is likely capable of groups, with that ammo, at 100 yds, that would be in the neighborhood of 3". I would consider that an acceptable degree of accuracy /group given the type of rifle and the import ammo. But it's not sub MOA.

July 24, 2017, 01:12 AM	#5
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	That's fine, as long as you only ever want to consider those first three shots and ignore the rest. What we have here, is the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. For more entertainment, check out the video version: Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. About a year ago, I fired a 15-round group with a customized Marlin .336 .30-30, during testing. I went for 15-rounds, because I wanted a reasonable data set, not the almost useless 3-shots. It was fantastic! I fired a one-hole group. ...Except I didn't. I may have put 11 of the rounds through the same hole, for a group size of less than .250", but the other four opened the whole thing up to over 2.5". We can cherry-pick all day long; but we're lying to ourselves more than we are to other people. Shoot real groups. Look at the reality of the situation. Go from there. (Crap ammo is crap.) __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

July 24, 2017, 09:08 PM	#6
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Lol... I'm terrible with irons...But I bet with a full mag from an AK I can get a few holes to touch. It takes match grade ammo to isolate the accuracy of the hardware from the ammo. Get a box each of Federal Gold Medal Match, and Black Hills. Shoot from a good rest, five shot groups, keep the barrel cool. Compare to what you get from the Wolf. Now, most of us can't afford to shoot 100 rounds of Black Hills on every range trip...Which is why we handload... __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

July 25, 2017, 01:25 PM	#8
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	1 MOA is 1" at 100 yards. Mind you, 3" at 100 with low end ammo and a rifle that wasn't made for great accuracy, isn't ugly. 30 is too close though. Make some sand bags and shoot at 100. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 25, 2017, 03:02 PM	#9
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Even though the PTR 91 barrels are better than any screwed on a military issue service rifle, these things are not capable of MOA or sub MOA as sold. Maybe if the barrel was free floated from the handguard, maybe some other things, this could be made into a target rifle. I have taken my PTR out to 100 and 200 yards, the five shot groups are probably biased as I would have only kept the best, the 200 yard group is closer to what these rifles are capable of with ball ammunition. About six inches at 200 yards. 100 yards Australian Ball: 100 yards Australian ball: __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

July 25, 2017, 05:22 PM	#11
rjinga Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2012 Location: N. E. Georgia Posts: 512	Ok, how about this then: Yesterday, I wanted to adjust my windage after shooting at 200, 300, and 400 yds. I also wanted to save my last box of better ammo for the steel silhouette at 400 yds. So, I fired Wolf ammo at a target at 100 yds for my windage adjustments. (Yeah I know it's crappy, and it's a different ammo, etc.) Anyway, I fired one shot (outside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage after that one shot. Then, I fired the three shots one after the other (inside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage again after those shots. Next, I fired another single shot (just on the edge of the red square at 3:00). I made one more slight windage adjustment. And then, I fired the last shot (just inside the 1" bulls-eye at 12:00). In my mind, those are four separate and distinct shooting events. To me, it is no different than if I had a single sheet of paper with four smaller targets on it: fire one shot, change POA; fire three shots, change POA; fire one shot, change POA, fire last shot. __________________ "Yo homie. Is that my briefcase?" Sig Sauer P229 SAS GEN 2 E2 9mm; PTR 91, GI model; Chinese Type 56 SKS; Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm

July 27, 2017, 07:58 PM	#12
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	When I shoot to see how a barrel or ammo groups, I use a 5 shoot group. With that said, any rifle that will shoot .48 MOA with Wolf ammo in a 5 shoot group is a keeper. I've never found Wolf ammo to be very accurate. And I've tried in a SKS, AK47, .223/5.56 AR, .308 AR, .40 cal and .45 cal. Dirty ammo IMO. But your mileage my vary.

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