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Old December 31, 2019, 07:40 AM   #1
bill460
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CBD Oil & Cream And Firearms Ownership ??

A lot of states currently allow for the use of, "Medical Marijuana". And several more states like Oregon and Washington have decriminalized it's use as a recreational drug. However, the ATF has stated in an official letter that possession of any type of, "Medical Marijuana Card", is an automatic admission of use. And as such you can lose your firearms because of it. Hawaii has even sent out letters to holders of, "Medical Marijuana Cards" saying as much. (Question #11 on the 4473 Form asks if you use Marijuana). If you check the box "YES", the dealer cannot sell you the weapon. Because Marijuana, medical or otherwise, is currently ILLEGAL at the Federal level. And Federal law supersedes state law in ALL 50 states.

Does anyone know if the same applies to the possession and use of CBD Oil and cream? This stuff is sold pretty much everywhere. Around here they even sell it in some gas stations. And many people have reported much success using it for pain relief. The oil is taken by mouth via an eyedropper, and the cream is applied topically. Neither product is an intoxicant, and they will not get you high, regardless of how much you take. Because the intoxicant in Marijuana, (THC), is not in the product. (Except in extremely small, trace amounts in some of the more potent oils).

Once again all of this treads into very sketchy territory involving firearms ownership. Personally, I know of no one who has ever lost their guns because of this. (Red Flag Laws seem to be far more dangerous in that regard). Yet the risk, however small is there. And as we all know, ANY Federal agency with 3 letters in their name has the power and ability to destroy your life with a stroke of a pen. IRS, FBI, ATF, DEA. It doesn't matter. They don't have to be right. And if they're not, they can just walk away without so much as an, "I'm sorry". And they will suffer zero consequences because of it.

Has anyone come across any actual cases involving these products they can comment on from actual experience?
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Old December 31, 2019, 09:43 AM   #2
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Does one need some form of scrip to purchase these products? If it is a cash and carry from the local convenience store, who would know?
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Old December 31, 2019, 09:50 AM   #3
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No type of prescription is needed. They can be purchased the same as a bag of screws from any hardware store. Or any other product for that matter.
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Old December 31, 2019, 10:07 AM   #4
Bartholomew Roberts
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I haven’t done any legal research; but I’ve seen CBD oil being sold at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. From that I’d assume it is either legal at the federal level or generates such an amazing amount of revenue that BBB can afford to pay a battalion of lawyers and still make a comfortable profit.
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Old December 31, 2019, 10:21 AM   #5
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If it shows up in your system as a result of a drug test, I doubt it matters whether you smoked it, rubbed it on your arthritic knuckles, or used an eye dropper to plop it under your tongue. I expect the federal government would say that, if it's in your system you are a user.

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Old December 31, 2019, 10:24 AM   #6
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...BBB can afford to pay a battalion of lawyers....
But can the OP (?)
Aye.. there's the rub.

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Old December 31, 2019, 11:07 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
If it shows up in your system as a result of a drug test, I doubt it matters whether you smoked it, rubbed it on your arthritic knuckles, or used an eye dropper to plop it under your tongue. I expect the federal government would say that, if it's in your system you are a user.
I'm retired, so my drug testing day's are over regarding employment. And I don't know anyone who was force tested for drugs by the Federal Government.... Unless again, if you were undergoing such a test for Federal employment.

However with that said, there could be an issue if you were using it, and were involved in a traffic accident that caused injuries. They might require a blood test for intoxicants, which you could possibly fail due to generating a false positive from the use of CBD products.

However, I don't know, or have even read or heard about that ever being a problem. And this stuff is seeing some pretty widespread use nationwide.
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Old December 31, 2019, 11:27 AM   #8
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I don't know the answer.

I see it on display at the local 7-11. I still would not count on it being blessed for use by the BATF.

I'm not suggesting anything makes sense.

I'm not taking risks without a definitive answer.

I cannot source it,but I read an article that stated US Military personnel were not permitted to use the stuff. I interpret that as a (possible) Federal position.
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Old December 31, 2019, 12:03 PM   #9
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Don't even think about it.
https://www.shaw.af.mil/News/Article...itary-members/
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Old December 31, 2019, 12:20 PM   #10
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HiBC…you are correct concerning military personnel. I'm a federal civil service worker and we were all briefed that use of CBD oil could possibly leave trace amounts of THC in the blood stream. If detected during a drug test, the individual could be subject to prosecution due to federal laws/UCMJ.
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Old December 31, 2019, 02:03 PM   #11
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Does that mean poppy seeds are illegal too? They can give a a positive result for opiates if the testing is strict enough.

Seems equivalent to me. Neither gets you high. Both give false positives for drug tests.
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Old December 31, 2019, 02:28 PM   #12
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Does that mean poppy seeds are illegal too? They can give a a positive result for opiates if the testing is strict enough.

Seems equivalent to me. Neither gets you high. Both give false positives for drug tests.
There is always someone who raises the argument "But what about….(alcohol,poppy seeds.etc. Fill in the blank)

So what? What you or I think is fair or "should be" are irrelevant.It does not have to be fair or make sense if its the law,right now,today.

That's the OP's question. Where does this stuff stand under the law.

"What seems..." only matters inside your head.

Last edited by HiBC; December 31, 2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old December 31, 2019, 02:42 PM   #13
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Nothing says big government like regulating a plant, especially when tons of new research is supporting the use of that plant. I am just mind blown that this is still an issue.
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Old December 31, 2019, 02:51 PM   #14
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I work at a gun shop in NC. We sell CBD oils & creams, I don't like the idea of doing it, but I'm an employee and have little say.

With that said, we've had at least one audit from the BATF since selling and not a word was said about it being sold there.

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Old December 31, 2019, 02:51 PM   #15
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^^^ That I agree with you on, but until legislation is passed at the federal level, we are in a quandary....
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Old December 31, 2019, 06:06 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by adamBomb
Nothing says big government like regulating a plant, especially when tons of new research is supporting the use of that plant. I am just mind blown that this is still an issue.
So marijuana OK; but background checks for gun owners necessary? Next year when I can claim 20 years here I’ll follow that thought up with you.
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Old December 31, 2019, 07:43 PM   #17
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I'm a federal civil service worker and we were all briefed that use of CBD oil could possibly leave trace amounts of THC in the blood stream.
It's the same in the trucking industry. The stuff is supposed to do wonders for aches and pains, but everyone's been cautioned against it because a failed drug test is career suicide for us.

I haven't been able to get a straight answer on the drug test issue. The closest I got was from a guy who ran a vapor shop and claimed it wasn't supposed to.
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Old December 31, 2019, 07:56 PM   #18
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Nothing says big government like regulating a plant, especially when tons of new research is supporting the use of that plant. I am just mind blown that this is still an issue.
What folks in their 20's or 30's might not comprehend is that guy who is 70 might have been at Woodstock. That guy (not me,I didn't go to Woodstock and I'm not 70) might have done 20,or 30,or 40 years of their own "research" longer than many of the condescending young cannabis "experts" have been on the planet.Some folks think the earth began when they were born.

Some of that experience is tragic. For some folks,long term cannabis use leads to lifelong mental health disability.
Some folks recognize the marketing propaganda of today is some % BS
snake oil salesmanship.

Someone stoned as he can be who snags his little toe on the couch leg in the dark feels pain as intensely and for as long as the person who only sips Twinings and eats Mothers oatmeal cookies.
But I don't know of a peer reviewed study

i

Last edited by HiBC; January 1, 2020 at 12:47 PM.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:21 PM   #19
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I'll say up front that news articles are often a terrible source for legal information, but if these are true, this topic is a can of worms, at least right now.

https://www.cnet.com/news/where-is-cbd-legal/

Is it legal federally? According to the article it could be--but it's difficult for you to know if it came from a legal source unless you grew it yourself. Some of it definitely isn't legal, but again the end user probably won't know for sure which is which.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science...ing-to-science

Even if everyone tries to do everything legally, the result might still be illegal.

If you're concerned about following the law, it would probably be smart to hold off on starting to use CBD until things are straightened out a little better than they are now.
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Old December 31, 2019, 11:08 PM   #20
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So, what's the real problem here?

I say it is, in part our technology, and in part the way we react to it, both personally and under our legal system.

CBD products are being sold openly on shelves and over the "net" almost everywhere now, so clearly its not illegal, at this time.

Our technology is awesome, we can find tiny traces of certain chemicals. However our drug testing tech won't (and can't) tell us WHERE those traces came from. In some cases the tests can't tell you if the reaction was from the specific prohibited/regulated chemical or from some other chemical that mimics that reaction in the test.

This is the "poppy seed" argument.

"we found traces of opiates in your test" =you're a junkie = you're fired!"
same for TCH, and other substances. Naturally occurring chemicals in legal, common accepted things also being in the illegal drugs. Or turn it around, same thing.

If the law says Marijuana is illegal, does that mean every single chemical compound in the plant is illegal? Or just that the combination AS FOUND in that plant is the illegal substance?

Only a few of the lines are clearly drawn. More are hinted at, but don't actually exist, yet. I think some should be drawn clearly, but exactly what needs to be well discussed and thought out.

We have a double standard at work, perhaps even a triple or double/double it gets confusing.

We've got the Feds saying one thing (current existing law) States saying something else (state laws) and both the govt and private employers saying something else again (in the way they treat testing results).

And they overlap differently in different areas of our lives.

last time I looked (and admittedly its been some time) the 4473 asked if you were "an illegal user of...."

not a lawyer, don't pretend to be one, but my version of common sense says if its not on the Fed's list of prohibited/restricted drugs, then you aren't an illegal user.

there are more than a few things in this world where A + B does NOT = C
The tests tell you we tested A, and found B deciding what C is doesn't come from the test, its done by people in some administrative capacity.

You have a 26" barrel shotgun. A search found a hacksaw in your garage, there fore you are guilty of having a sawed off shotgun.

Same logic, and just as flawed in firearms law as drug laws.

Not saying we shouldn't test people for illegal drug use, only that there should be more to it than just assuming a positive result is holy writ.

it's definitely a big can of worms and I don't see any simple way out. All possible legislative solutions I can think of will be flawed, and will not protect the innocent in every possible situation.

Seems like most things are that way these days, in some degree...

Probably always has been..I suppose that's why we have courts and trial by jury...we sometimes use them badly, but we always have to opportunity not to...
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Old December 31, 2019, 11:22 PM   #21
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CBD products are being sold openly on shelves and over the "net" almost everywhere now, so clearly its not illegal, at this time.
It appears that it is possible for CBD products to be legal. It also appears that there is very little way for the end user to know for certain if a particular CBD product is legal or not.

The fact that they are being sold openly, the fact that the grower and seller have tried to comply with the various regulations doesn't appear to guarantee that the product will be legal.

At this time, if you are concerned about following the law, it would be best to hold off on purchasing/using CBD products until the laws are straightened out so that there's less confusion.
Quote:
This is the "poppy seed" argument.
It's a lot more complicated than that. Start by reading the articles in the two links I provided above.
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Old January 1, 2020, 12:11 PM   #22
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Full Spectrum CBD oil can and usually does contain 0.3% THC. Which can and usually does show up on a drug test. You have the right to contest the drug test, and they will retest with more sensitive tests that will show content of less than 0.3%. According to any information I have researched, that level or below is considered acceptable even to the federal government.

Broad Spectrum CBD oil contains 0.0% THC, and the stuff still works every bit as good as Full Specrum, for me anyhow.

Isolate CBD oil also contains 0.0% THC, but that stuff doesn't help me a bit.

Yes, CBD oil works, but the good stuff, which is what people should only consider taking, will cost about $100 a month to use. The cheap stuff, that you will find at gas stations and on ebay, gives me serious headaches. Buy only from a reputable source that provides third party test results.

Note: Do not take my word for any of this. Please do your own research.

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Old January 1, 2020, 04:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Does that mean poppy seeds are illegal too? They can give a a positive result for opiates if the testing is strict enough.

Seems equivalent to me. Neither gets you high. Both give false positives for drug tests.
On an episode of Myth Busters they found that the amount of poppy seeds you would need to consume to regularly test positive can give you a “high”.

Jim

Last edited by laytonj1; January 1, 2020 at 04:17 PM.
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Old January 1, 2020, 04:30 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by laytonj1 View Post
On an episode of Myth Busters they found that the amount of poppy seeds you would need to consume to regularly test positive can give you a “high”.
Some years back we had a guy working at our place, who failed a random drug test because of eating 2 poppy seed breakfast Croissants. They tested him 3 days later and he passed. This guy WAS NOT a Marijuana user. I have no idea how many seeds he consumed. But I doubt he got "high" from them.
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Old January 1, 2020, 04:36 PM   #25
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Full Spectrum CBD oil can and usually does contain 0.3% THC. Which can and usually does show up on a drug test. You have the right to contest the drug test, and they will retest with more sensitive tests that will show content of less than 0.3%. According to any information I have researched, that level or below is considered acceptable even to the federal government.
The legal issues go beyond the possibility of a false positive on a test. That's what makes this different from eating poppyseed.

Poppyseed is perfectly legal. There's absolutely no question about it. No confusion, no possibility that you accidentally ate illegal poppyseed.

In this case, the CBD product (even though it's sold openly and even though the grower, seller and consumer might all believe they are complying with the law) might actually be illegal based on circumstances that the consumer is unlikely to be able to control, or determine.
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