Advice on building a Long Rifle...

5whiskey · October 3, 2019, 10:03 PM

So I will be indisposed for the next year, unfortunately. Over the past year or so I have really taken to black powder shooting, however. As a reward to me for my involuntary (sort of, I signed the contract) internment in the middle east, I am planning on building a poor version of the Kentucky (actually Pennsylvania) rifle when I get back. So I'm open to suggestions and advice. I have haunted americanlongrifle.com but cannot post on there, plus they get this question probably weekly so I'll get some rolleyes there.

I've done a fair bit of research on this. I have books, with photos of originals. I really want to build something akin to a southern mountain rifle, being from NC. From what I gather, they lack brass adornments and have grease holes instead of patch boxes with covers. I actually like this style.

I struggle with several things. First, I've never done this and I secretly wonder if I should get a super cheap traditions kit for my first build. I am fairly patient with such things, so I'm not super worried about ruining expensive steel or wood because of rushing things. Due to this, I've mostly decided against a cheap kit. A 2 piece stock and crappy lock don't interest me so much, and if I'm going to spend money on any upgrades I may as well start with good (but significantly more expensive) parts. Any thoughts?

Second, I'm really torn between Flintlock or Percussion. I am typically a traditionalist, and thus lean toward flintlocks. However, I have found that there are plenty of examples of both in Southern Appalachia, even as far back as the 1850s and 1860s (I've seen at least one original believed to be made in the late 1840s with percussion ignition). The prolific use of percussion caps so early in an area known to be behind the rest of the East coast by several decades is surprising. I like, shoot, and enjoy Flintlocks... but percussion rifles do have advantages. Were it not for their common period usage, I would be against a percussion rifle completely. Now I'm not so sure.

Lastly... I'm pretty open to this one... caliber. I've mostly pondered .45. It's a caliber mostly sufficient for hunting, and in a fairly period correct caliber. Despite being slightly weak for deer, I wouldn't be afraid to hunt with it in Eastern NC (our deer aren't supersized here, 200 lbs is a large specimen). I do not want a squirrel rifle, at least not for my first build, so .36 is definitely out. .40 is small for large game hunting, though I suspect quite a few deer were killed with a .40ish caliber back in the day. Alas, ethical kills are a concern. .50 was probably used more than we think, but conventional wisdom says calibers this large were not frequently used in Southern Appalachia. Insight on caliber selection is welcome.

Can anyone offer anything to help me in my decision making process? Any particular experience or knowledge to help me out?

Oliver Sudden · October 3, 2019, 11:08 PM

I’d look very hard a Jim Kimber kits. There are a few models to include a SMR your choice of caliber. 50 is alway a good caliber. Watch his videos on U tube. Learn to sharpen chisels to scary sharp. If you think you’re losing the edge then you should of sharpened it already.
A cheap kit is the most expensive one you can buy.

HiBC · October 3, 2019, 11:09 PM

I forget which Foxfire book it was,but one of them showed a Gentleman named Herschel House build a Poor Boy Southern Mountain rifle using old school methods.I'll respectfully say "Appalachian style" Another Gentleman who appeared in the article was Hacker Martin.I looked it up. Foxfire #5 is the one. I recommend it.
https://www.amazon.com/Foxfire-Ironm...4MCMTND5V8SYEY)

Really,they detail building exactly what you describe.

Around when the movie Jeremiah Johnson came out,a lot of folks built kit rifles.
Mostly T?C's and CVA's. Most of these rifles are the pride and joy of the folks that built them. I truly do respect the builds ,the rifles,and the folks who built them.

About that period of time I took a job in a machine job shop and had the good fortune to work with a man whose business card was "The Flintlocker" out of Cheyenne.

He mentored me through a build or two. His position was to avoid kits. I found its not a big deal to build a Siler Lock kit. See Track of the Wolf or maybe Dixie. You do drill a few holes,tap some,and heat and quench some parts.It makes a nice lock,and the flinter I built sparked good.
Today,I have not been building,I'm not in touch with what is out there.I won't say there are not any good kits. I don't know.

Flint lock/caplock? Up to you! Caliber? I suppose back in the day ,on foot,smaller calibers used less lead. How serious are you about deer hunting?

I went 54 because we have elk here. I'd still go .50 for deer. I'd guess the old timers got by with .36 to 45 more often.Smaller bore foul a bit quicker and ramrods get pretty skinny at 36 and below.You want one made from split hickory,Splitting has the grain run right. Dowel just don't cut it!.

In that foxfire Herchel shows you how to make your trigger. It just hangs on a pin in the stock. No butplate. He shows you how to make the trigger guard.

You can do it!!.

Take care of yourself!!

PS,another really good book on ML rifle building is by an author named Bivens? I think. ( Now I'm pretty sure Bivens wrote a good book on the Hawken)I'm pretty sure the title is close to "Building the Pennsylvania Long Rifle" There is one in Track of the Wolf "The Art of Building the PLR"
Generally fancier rifles than you describe,but a lot of technique and understanding of what you need to know.IIRC there were some patterns included.

This is the one I was thinking of:
Recreating the American Longrifle by William Buchele, George Shumway, Peter Alexander

l.cutler · October 4, 2019, 03:33 AM

Jim Kibler kit would be the way to go. His kits are extremely high quality and have much more work already done than the other quality parts sets. Price is very good as well.

ligonierbill · October 4, 2019, 07:36 AM

Whatever you decide, I suggest you read Recreating the American Longrifle by Buchele, Shumway, and Alexander.

I have built two from Jim Chamber's kits. Very pleased with those, but there are lots of options. Right now I have one on the bench that literally started with lock, stock (blank), and barrel. Maybe I'll finish it this winter.

Regards flint vs. percussion, the percussion era lasted, what, 40 years. The flintlock several hundred. A quality, well tuned lock is very fast.

5whiskey · October 4, 2019, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Regards flint vs. percussion, the percussion era lasted, what, 40 years. The flintlock several hundred.

Good point on that matter. Very good indeed. And I fully plan on purchasing recreating the American long rifle.

I've heard nothing bad about Jim Chambers kits. I was under the impression they were super expensive, but I just checked the price list and they're really not too bad.

**4V50 Gary** · October 4, 2019, 06:03 PM

Kibler kits are good for beginners.
I prefer flintlocks, but that’s me.
I’d go with 50 as its pretty common and big enough for deer.

Pahoo · October 4, 2019, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Advice on building a Long Rifle...

The best advice I can give, is to be patient with the project and yourself !!!
Kits whether you buy individual components or as a kit, can be very gratifying.

Be Safe !!!

5whiskey · October 6, 2019, 08:18 AM

I Appreciate the input so far everyone. I'm about positive I will stick with Flintlock. And I will probably go with a .50 caliber as I do want to hunt with the thing.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'll just buy a lock, stock, breech plug, and barrel. I want to try my hand at forging the trigger guard, toe plate, and heck probably the thimbles and nose cap. I have no time limit on this, plus I can't start until I get back home anyway.

Meanwhile, any home builders prefer any particular method of metal finish? I'm looking into oil blackening has anyone used that before?

caligula · October 6, 2019, 11:08 AM

I'm going to relay my experience to you because this project is to personal for anyone but the maker to succeed. I built a flinter longrifle over a three week winter vacation in 1996. I decided on the Lancaster school because I liked the wider and straightforward butplate and stock style. I decided to go with .45 caliber because that was the largest bore for the 13/16 in. barrels and I wanted a lean looking rifle. My main sources were Dixie Gun Works and "Building the Kentucky Rifle" by James R. Johnson. This book should be the starter bible for anyone daring this adventure. Welcome to paradise. When you touch it off for the first time you will have membership in one of the most unique societies of America. Good luck - - -

October 3, 2019, 10:03 PM	#1
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,652	Advice on building a Long Rifle... So I will be indisposed for the next year, unfortunately. Over the past year or so I have really taken to black powder shooting, however. As a reward to me for my involuntary (sort of, I signed the contract) internment in the middle east, I am planning on building a poor version of the Kentucky (actually Pennsylvania) rifle when I get back. So I'm open to suggestions and advice. I have haunted americanlongrifle.com but cannot post on there, plus they get this question probably weekly so I'll get some rolleyes there. I've done a fair bit of research on this. I have books, with photos of originals. I really want to build something akin to a southern mountain rifle, being from NC. From what I gather, they lack brass adornments and have grease holes instead of patch boxes with covers. I actually like this style. I struggle with several things. First, I've never done this and I secretly wonder if I should get a super cheap traditions kit for my first build. I am fairly patient with such things, so I'm not super worried about ruining expensive steel or wood because of rushing things. Due to this, I've mostly decided against a cheap kit. A 2 piece stock and crappy lock don't interest me so much, and if I'm going to spend money on any upgrades I may as well start with good (but significantly more expensive) parts. Any thoughts? Second, I'm really torn between Flintlock or Percussion. I am typically a traditionalist, and thus lean toward flintlocks. However, I have found that there are plenty of examples of both in Southern Appalachia, even as far back as the 1850s and 1860s (I've seen at least one original believed to be made in the late 1840s with percussion ignition). The prolific use of percussion caps so early in an area known to be behind the rest of the East coast by several decades is surprising. I like, shoot, and enjoy Flintlocks... but percussion rifles do have advantages. Were it not for their common period usage, I would be against a percussion rifle completely. Now I'm not so sure. Lastly... I'm pretty open to this one... caliber. I've mostly pondered .45. It's a caliber mostly sufficient for hunting, and in a fairly period correct caliber. Despite being slightly weak for deer, I wouldn't be afraid to hunt with it in Eastern NC (our deer aren't supersized here, 200 lbs is a large specimen). I do not want a squirrel rifle, at least not for my first build, so .36 is definitely out. .40 is small for large game hunting, though I suspect quite a few deer were killed with a .40ish caliber back in the day. Alas, ethical kills are a concern. .50 was probably used more than we think, but conventional wisdom says calibers this large were not frequently used in Southern Appalachia. Insight on caliber selection is welcome. Can anyone offer anything to help me in my decision making process? Any particular experience or knowledge to help me out? __________________ Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

October 3, 2019, 11:09 PM	#3
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I forget which Foxfire book it was,but one of them showed a Gentleman named Herschel House build a Poor Boy Southern Mountain rifle using old school methods.I'll respectfully say "Appalachian style" Another Gentleman who appeared in the article was Hacker Martin.I looked it up. Foxfire #5 is the one. I recommend it. https://www.amazon.com/Foxfire-Ironm...4MCMTND5V8SYEY) Really,they detail building exactly what you describe. Around when the movie Jeremiah Johnson came out,a lot of folks built kit rifles. Mostly T?C's and CVA's. Most of these rifles are the pride and joy of the folks that built them. I truly do respect the builds ,the rifles,and the folks who built them. About that period of time I took a job in a machine job shop and had the good fortune to work with a man whose business card was "The Flintlocker" out of Cheyenne. He mentored me through a build or two. His position was to avoid kits. I found its not a big deal to build a Siler Lock kit. See Track of the Wolf or maybe Dixie. You do drill a few holes,tap some,and heat and quench some parts.It makes a nice lock,and the flinter I built sparked good. Today,I have not been building,I'm not in touch with what is out there.I won't say there are not any good kits. I don't know. Flint lock/caplock? Up to you! Caliber? I suppose back in the day ,on foot,smaller calibers used less lead. How serious are you about deer hunting? I went 54 because we have elk here. I'd still go .50 for deer. I'd guess the old timers got by with .36 to 45 more often.Smaller bore foul a bit quicker and ramrods get pretty skinny at 36 and below.You want one made from split hickory,Splitting has the grain run right. Dowel just don't cut it!. In that foxfire Herchel shows you how to make your trigger. It just hangs on a pin in the stock. No butplate. He shows you how to make the trigger guard. You can do it!!. Take care of yourself!! PS,another really good book on ML rifle building is by an author named Bivens? I think. ( Now I'm pretty sure Bivens wrote a good book on the Hawken)I'm pretty sure the title is close to "Building the Pennsylvania Long Rifle" There is one in Track of the Wolf "The Art of Building the PLR" Generally fancier rifles than you describe,but a lot of technique and understanding of what you need to know.IIRC there were some patterns included. This is the one I was thinking of: Recreating the American Longrifle by William Buchele, George Shumway, Peter Alexander Last edited by HiBC; October 3, 2019 at 11:57 PM.

October 4, 2019, 06:03 PM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	Kibler kits are good for beginners. I prefer flintlocks, but that’s me. I’d go with 50 as its pretty common and big enough for deer. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 6, 2019, 08:18 AM	#9
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,652	I Appreciate the input so far everyone. I'm about positive I will stick with Flintlock. And I will probably go with a .50 caliber as I do want to hunt with the thing. The more I think about it, the more I think I'll just buy a lock, stock, breech plug, and barrel. I want to try my hand at forging the trigger guard, toe plate, and heck probably the thimbles and nose cap. I have no time limit on this, plus I can't start until I get back home anyway. Meanwhile, any home builders prefer any particular method of metal finish? I'm looking into oil blackening has anyone used that before? __________________ Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

October 3, 2019, 11:08 PM	#2
Oliver Sudden Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2017 Location: Colorado Posts: 272	I’d look very hard a Jim Kimber kits. There are a few models to include a SMR your choice of caliber. 50 is alway a good caliber. Watch his videos on U tube. Learn to sharpen chisels to scary sharp. If you think you’re losing the edge then you should of sharpened it already. A cheap kit is the most expensive one you can buy.

October 4, 2019, 03:33 AM	#4
l.cutler Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2005 Posts: 275	Jim Kibler kit would be the way to go. His kits are extremely high quality and have much more work already done than the other quality parts sets. Price is very good as well.

October 4, 2019, 07:36 AM	#5
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	Whatever you decide, I suggest you read Recreating the American Longrifle by Buchele, Shumway, and Alexander. I have built two from Jim Chamber's kits. Very pleased with those, but there are lots of options. Right now I have one on the bench that literally started with lock, stock (blank), and barrel. Maybe I'll finish it this winter. Regards flint vs. percussion, the percussion era lasted, what, 40 years. The flintlock several hundred. A quality, well tuned lock is very fast.

October 6, 2019, 11:08 AM	#10
caligula Member Join Date: November 1, 2017 Posts: 42	I'm going to relay my experience to you because this project is to personal for anyone but the maker to succeed. I built a flinter longrifle over a three week winter vacation in 1996. I decided on the Lancaster school because I liked the wider and straightforward butplate and stock style. I decided to go with .45 caliber because that was the largest bore for the 13/16 in. barrels and I wanted a lean looking rifle. My main sources were Dixie Gun Works and "Building the Kentucky Rifle" by James R. Johnson. This book should be the starter bible for anyone daring this adventure. Welcome to paradise. When you touch it off for the first time you will have membership in one of the most unique societies of America. Good luck - - -