December 5, 2019, 09:49 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 3,998
|
I’d happily hunt with a 257 AI and 115 gr Ballistic Tips. That’s almost the same In ballistics as my 260 and 120 gr Ballistic Tips. I push it at approx 2800 and it is very effective. It’s been years since I used my 270 and the 130 gr BTs at 3000 FPS. It took me many years to realize that I didn’t need as much gun as I had been using. That said, the 270 was soooo very effective.
I was in a gun shop in Hico, Texas a few days ago, and in a rack I saw an old battered Ruger 77 Ultralight. Before I picked it up I had already decided to buy it IF it was in 257 Roberts. But, it was in 223. It almost stuck to my hand anyway. It was a great gun shop. Best I’ve seen in decades. |
December 6, 2019, 09:49 AM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2016
Location: West of the Atlantic
Posts: 418
|
Quote:
__________________
Matthew "All men are ignorant. The topics of our ignorance may vary, but the nature of the world is that no man may know everything." ~ R Jordan |
|
December 6, 2019, 12:46 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,293
|
+1 for Nosler Ballistic Tips.
I had a load for my great grandfather's 7.62x51mmR that was about 1400fps (the gun was over 100 years old) and the 150 g nostler ballistic tip opened up like an orchid and put a big doe down in 3 steps. The bullet was recovered in the hide on the opposite side of the carcass- great big Wisconsin doe... I still remember how heavy she was trying to load her up. It was after dark and I was cold and tired and my buddies were not hunting that day. It was a memorable day and that old rifle will never see the field again, honorably retired. |
December 6, 2019, 04:04 PM | #29 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,248
|
Quote:
Over the past 50 years that I have been involved in hunting and shooting, I have read of several other methods to try to determine which cartridge or bullet has an advantage and will kill quickly and humanely. Momentum calculations and formuals like Taylor's KO Index, among others, favors slower, heavier bullets. Kinetic energy formulas favor speed over weight of the projectile (the whole "1/2 mass X velocity squared" thing). The typical discussion between two or more hunters usually sounds like "heavier bullets kill better" vs "higher velocity kills better". In my experience, there is a sweet spot for both velocity and bullet weight, somewhere around 130-180 grains of weight going 2,300-3,000 ft/s. There are dozens of cartridges that fall within those ranges that are recognized as "good killing rounds", from 30-30 to 375 H&H. Any faster and there is too much meat damage, any slower and there is no hydrostatic shock to create a good wound channel.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services |
|
December 6, 2019, 06:54 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 3,998
|
Not disagreeing, but my old 35 Remington and 200 gr CoreLokt bullets, at 2100 FPS, left a heck of a wound channel. That said, my present preference for a hunting bullet would be my 260 and 120 gr BTs at about 2800 FPS, or something similar.
Talking about foot pounds of energy that a caliber and load generate isn’t worth much unless the energy is transferred to the critter. The bullet I use in the 260 won’t exit a big hog, so energy transfer is total, but it isn’t in a deer or coyote. |
December 7, 2019, 10:25 AM | #31 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,165
|
Quote:
Until recently, I followed Elmer Keith logic. (Which was cirrect at his time) Heavy bullet pushed extremely fast is the best way to quickly kill. Bonded bullets and monolithic expanding bullets have changed the game. I now favor a relatively light bullet pushed at screaming velocity. Of course, the ultra long range still requires long high b.c. bullets. Last edited by reynolds357; December 7, 2019 at 10:30 AM. |
|
December 7, 2019, 12:16 PM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,868
|
Quote:
|
|
December 7, 2019, 01:56 PM | #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,165
|
Quote:
Of the two you mentioned, I would take the .30-06. Had the choice been 7 mag with a 140tsx, instead of .243, I would choose 7 mag. .243 is too small at any velocity to shoot something that will try to eat you. In the .243 Win, it is also way short on energy. |
|
December 7, 2019, 03:43 PM | #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,248
|
Quote:
My take on this whole argument is that bullet weight gives penetration, velocity gives you a flatter trajectory. Anything else depends on what you are shooting at and where you hit it.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services |
|
December 7, 2019, 04:08 PM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,165
|
Quote:
|
|
December 7, 2019, 08:48 PM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 4,424
|
Gave me a headache
You're overthinking this. I shot a doe at 127 yards with a 165 Grand Slam at 2600fps from my 308. The bullet destroyed lungs, heart, and liver with complete penetration. Been using 150 Hornady for years, but wanted the 165 to also use on hogs because of the penetration. The 150s, at 2600 wouldn't plow through on chest shots unless under 50 yards. Bullet construction will take care of the MO.
|
December 8, 2019, 03:24 AM | #37 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,833
|
Energy numbers provide a standard for comparison of cartridges with each other. For "what kills best" and "what stops best" energy numbers alone don't mean much. There are many other factors at work, and no generalization (except my signature line ) seems to cover all possible situations adequately.
for an illustration of how energy numbers alone don't work in every real world situation, look at some extreme differences that have the same energy numbers. A 405gr .45-70 bullet in the 1300fps range produces approx. 1500 ft/lbs of energy. A 55gr .22-250 bullet in the 3500fps range produces approx. 1500 ft/lbs of energy. If energy were the only thing that mattered then with the same amount of energy these two rounds should perform identically on game, right? They don't. Which leads me to conclude there is more at work than just energy numbers alone.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
December 8, 2019, 10:18 AM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,165
|
Quote:
The point I am arguing is that with the advent of expanding monolithic and extremely tough bonded bullets, energy is able to play a role that in the past was not possible due to guaranteed bullet failure. |
|
December 8, 2019, 10:33 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 3,998
|
The tougher the bullet, the more chance the bullet will waste energy on the other side of the deer, be it a tree or hillside.
I often shoot coyotes with the Nosler 40 gr Ballistic Tip, and they often don’t exit. That puts most or all of the energy into the coyote. Knocks them flat. Very impressive. |
December 8, 2019, 10:49 AM | #40 | |||
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
December 8, 2019, 11:28 AM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
Momentum is the mass x velocity, where velocity is the speed and direction. (Mass times the acceleration due to gravity is the weight.)
Two disparate objects with the same momentum will have very different energy levels on-target, such as a 750 grain bullet vs. an 80,000 lb 18 wheeler. In ballistic events, momentum is a valid measurement for some things, but not as important as *delivered* kinetic energy, which is 1/2 x mass times the velocity squared. As an example of equal delivered kinetic energy: A 750 grain .50 cal round has about 8000 ft lbs of energy at 1000 yards. So does an 80,000 lb 18 wheeler going 1.7 mph. Which is more likely to stop a deer / elk / sasquatch? As for the momentum of the 2 objects above (and as a physics teacher ), your assignment is to do the math on the difference in momentum and kinetic energy and compare the results. (Note that the "V squared" term is what makes the difference in in the kinetic energy and momentum values.) As a very very rough guide, delivered kinetic energy (listed as kinetic energy at a particular range) is sometimes used "stopping power" value.
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
December 8, 2019, 04:12 PM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,286
|
In one of the volumes of P.O Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters" is an article by a respected big game outfitter.
I have a good friend who worked as a big game guide in the Rawah Wilderness area of Northern Colorado. They both said the same thing.Odds are.if the hunter shows up with a 30-06,a 270,etc,the shooting part will work out fine. Its the guy with the 340 Weatherby that makes them nervous. That's got to do with whether the hunter's eyes are still open when the trigger breaks. Wyosmith said it beautifully.Its the hole that kills. This whole thing of isolating the cartridge or the rifle or energy isn't a broad enough look. The whole package includes the shooter. It starts with the shooter. The guy shooting the 340 Weatherby might believe he is the "man of steel" and recoil does not bother him. He NEVER flinches,and can always place his shot. Maybe so. If so,he is exceptional. But I'm of the opinion the vast majority of big game hunters have a limit to how much rifle they can shoot well. For most,thats about up to,and including the 30-06. Many find the 7-08,260,etc works even better for them. If you can rest over a log and comfortably hit a clay pigeon at whatever range,200,maybe 300 yds,tou can place your shot. Right there! If you understand the anatomy of your animal,you can shoot for a particular organ. If you can accomplish that,it just does not matter much if the heart or the lungs are destroyed by a 45-70 from a rolling block or a 250 Savage from a Savage 99 or a 150 gr bullet from Grandpa's thirty thirty. Old timers ate a lot of venison killed by 25-20's and 32-20's. A lead round ball at about 1900 fps still works. I do believe in using enough gun. I don't condone moose hunting with a 223. But a mere mortal who can shoot his or her 308 or 7-08 can cleanly,humanely take a 200 yd elk,no problem. Dead is dead. There is a lot to be said for the shot placement confidence of shooting a milder cartridge. You can certainly hunt deer with a 375 H+H,or a 340 Weatherby. Whatever works for you. I'm not worried about it. You can use your 257 Weatherby on pronghorns,no problem. But a 257 Roberts will cleanly kill pronghorn at 300+ yds,no problem. |
December 8, 2019, 05:21 PM | #43 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,165
|
Quote:
Ackley, the man who believed every cartride should go at least 200 fps faster, is mentioned in your reference against velocity??????? Irony at its best. |
|
December 8, 2019, 06:30 PM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 3,998
|
In the 80’s I did some business related hosting for deer hunting in South Texas. Sometimes I knew who’d be on my Jeep and sometimes I got to decide who’d be on the Jeep. But sometimes I’d have a rider that I didn’t know. Without being too obvious, I’d have a look at them and their gear and rifle. You could usually spot the old hands and the newbies with the shiny new rifles. And it mattered, since I’d be doing the tracking. If I saw a newbie with a magnum (also new), I worried.
And I did know a guy that bought a 340 Weatherby to hunt something. I forget what. Some time later, he was on my Jeep. I asked how he liked the 340, which he didn’t have with him. He said he sold it. Only shot it 4 times - 3 at the range and once at the animal. Said that was enough, and he was a good hunter. As for previous comments, HiBC said it all very well. |
December 8, 2019, 10:21 PM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,286
|
Quote:
I will happily give you the benefit of the doubt. If you say so,you are the rare and special shooter who never squints while shooting his 340 Weatherby. My hat is off to you. You are special. But the vast majority of hunters and shooters have a point where the intensity of shooting a rifle makes them an inconsistent,and sometimes lousy shot. I advocate for using ENOUGH gun,but more is not necessarily better.I advocate for knowing your ballistics,knowing what range your velocity drops below 2000 fps or whatever speed your bullet performs. I advocate for selecting a bullet that is designed for what you are trying to do. I have no doubt that a 308 loaded with a 165 gr Ballistic tip ,shot placed through the ribs just behind the foreleg will cleanly kill an elk.out to 300 yds. Of course there are exceptions,but for the vast majority of shooters who have reasonable skills and some practice, shot placement out to 300 yds is a reasonable expectation with a 308 class rifle . Hand that same shooter a 300 win mag or more,he hears footsteps .He cringes and flinches sometimes. Which means he throws a bad shot sometimes. And sometimes that's just a miss,sometimes its a mess. Of course,I concede,reynolds 357,thats not you. You are special. But I'm among the rest of us mere mortals who prefer a milder rifle,and I believe a milder rifle can produce a higher percentage of clean kills due to a higher percentage of well placed shots. Your comment on Mr Ackley? You have a misconception on my attitude toward velocity.. My 257 is an AI. My load these days is a 115 at about 3050. Not much different than little brother to a 270.,a classic,effective mild shooting hunting rifle. In many instances,the AI was applied to cartridges with excessive case taper and sloped shoulders. Sure,there was velocity gain,but that's not the only point of the AI. You and I also see overbore differently. I never felt I needed more case capacity n a 7 mm Rem Mag.None of the published loads,IIRC,passed 90% case fill. I actually think the 7x61 Sharps and Hart was a better 7mm magnum design. I prefer 160 gr + in a 7mm,and I prefer to not shove the bullet down into the boiler room. I long seat them. Which is why,in my opinion,cartridges like the 7mm STW may have their fans,but I prefer a more balanced cartridge. |
|
December 9, 2019, 10:57 AM | #46 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
|
|
December 9, 2019, 03:13 PM | #47 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,165
|
Quote:
|
|
December 9, 2019, 06:45 PM | #48 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
|
|
December 10, 2019, 08:31 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2016
Location: West of the Atlantic
Posts: 418
|
Haha! This made my morning!
__________________
Matthew "All men are ignorant. The topics of our ignorance may vary, but the nature of the world is that no man may know everything." ~ R Jordan |
December 10, 2019, 01:54 PM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,165
|
I have seen one detonated. My friend decuded he wanted to hunt with his .50 BMG. He detonated the poor little whitetail. Anyone who says a 50 will just punch a clean hole has ibvuously never shot anything with one.
|
|
|