Removing rust on blued surfaces--do NOT use oil!!!

[JohnKSa]

If you want to delude yourself that dry rust is somehow less abrasive than rust suspended in oil, go ahead.

The point is that they're both about the same in terms of abrasiveness. The difference is that the oil keeps the rust in place unless you make a concerted effort to flush the surface and the steel wool clean while if it's done without oil, the rust falls away and is easily dusted off rather than rubbed around on the surface.

I once tried to see if I could damage bluing on a scrap barrel by rubbing it with 0000 and oil. And, yes, it was rusty. I finally managed to get the bluing to fade slightly - after 10 minutes of white knuckle rubbing.

That's pretty impressive and I can see how that would strengthen your opinion of the technique. I never had that much luck using oil. If I wasn't very careful it was pretty easy to get the finish to fade with even careful rubbing.

[RaySendero]

[Guys, I've had the best luck getting the rust off w/o scratching the bluing using 0000 steel wool and...

Hoppes #9 !!!

[natman]

The point is that they're both about the same in terms of abrasiveness. The difference is that the oil keeps the rust in place unless you make a concerted effort to flush the surface and the steel wool clean while if it's done without oil, the rust falls away and is easily dusted off rather than rubbed around on the surface.

I disagree with both points - that oiled rust is as abrasive as dry rust and that dry rust magically vanishes.

That's pretty impressive and I can see how that would strengthen your opinion of the technique. I never had that much luck using oil. If I wasn't very careful it was pretty easy to get the finish to fade with even careful rubbing.

What's impressed me more is the hundreds - literally hundreds - of guns I've removed rust from with 0000 steel wool and oil without damaging the bluing on a single one. Back in the 80's when you could still get a long gun cash and carry in California, I would buy a cheap beater almost every weekend and fix it up during the week. Since then I've worked for years in a gunshop and you wouldn't believe how rusty some of the gems people put on consignment are. I've removed enough rust off guns to build a small Fiat without once damaging the bluing on any of them.

So given that I disagree with the facts of your premise and since it runs counter to 25+ years of first hand experience, I hope you can appreciate my skepticism.

Peace.

[Shane Tuttle]

So given that I disagree with the facts of your premise and since it runs counter to 25+ years of first hand experience, I hope you can appreciate my skepticism.

Skepticism? Yes. Your delivery? ....

All John was saying is his viewpoint and his own experience. Chest thumping about your experience and dismissing his isn't exactly the way to provide your viewpoint here. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Reminds me when I used to work at a car dealership. Two detailers thought each others' methods were completely ass-backwards and wrong. Yet both produced desireable results in the grand scheme of it all....

[natman]

All John was saying is his viewpoint and his own experience. Chest thumping about your experience and dismissing his isn't exactly the way to provide your viewpoint here. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Reminds me when I used to work at a car dealership. Two detailers thought each others' methods were completely ass-backwards and wrong. Yet both produced desireable results in the grand scheme of it all....

This isn't a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" difference of opinion about which technique gives a better shine, fresher breath or whiter whites. John started this thread warning us in dire tones that using oil to remove rust will damage bluing.

That's a pretty specific statement of fact, which IMO defies both logic and experience.

Let's leave it at that.

[JohnKSa]

I disagree with both points - that oiled rust is as abrasive as dry rust and that dry rust magically vanishes.

Except that I said neither.

I said they're "about" the same and they are. The abrasives in lapping compounds are still abrasive even though they're suspended in some sort of petroleum based product and while oil may provide some minimal protection against the abrasive action, it won't make an abrasive into a non-abrasive.

And I didn't say anything about anything "magically" vanishing. It's pretty easy to see that if you use oil that the dislodged rust particles are held in place by the oil and can't be easily dusted off as they can be if the removal is done dry. It's not magic at all, it's pretty straightforward logic that's easily verified for those who haven't already had a similar experience.

That's a pretty specific statement of fact, which IMO defies both logic and experience.

It doesn't defy logic at all, and I've taken pains to explain exactly why what I have said is logical. As far as defying experience, it clearly doesn't defy my experience although it's also clear that your experience and mine differ somewhat.

Rubbing rust on a blued finish will damage it because rust (iron oxide) is an abrasive and rubbing an abrasive on a blued finish will damage it. That said, is it possible to do it with only minimal, perhaps imperceptible damage? Clearly it is as your experience demonstrates. And before I tried it without oil, I was able to do a lot of rust removal using oil and 0000 steel wool without ruining guns although I did get some finish fading at times. However, after experimenting a little, I found that it was much easier to keep the finish intact if I didn't use oil during the actual rust removal process. Others I have mentioned this to have tried the method I suggested and achieved similar results.

Again, it's not like I have anything tied up in this. The only reason I pointed it out was because I have had a good bit of experience trying both methods while it appeared to me that most people had always assumed that it should be done with oil and never tried it any other way.

Again, I have no problem if people want to use oil (why would I?), but I think if they try both ways they will almost certainly get the same results I did.

[Bill DeShivs]

The best of both methods is to liberally flush with WD 40-both the part and steel wool, and wipe the part down frequently. I have never used oil, as most oils are too thick and don't penetrate rust as easily as WD 40.

[JohnKSa]

That makes sense. Anything that keeps the rust particles from building up and being rubbed around on the surface would do the trick.

I'll try that next time I have some rust removal work to do.

[Edward429451]

I've always heard that you should not use steel wool on a gun because the steel particles will get into the pores of the metal and oxidize. One should use 0000 stainless steel wool.

[natman]

This is a myth transposed from a true bit of advice concerning using steel wool on wood. Wood has enough pores to capture bits of steel wool which will eventually rust. Blued metal doesn't.

[natman]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

The best of both methods is to liberally flush with WD 40-both the part and steel wool, and wipe the part down frequently. I have never used oil, as most oils are too thick and don't penetrate rust as easily as WD 40.

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

That makes sense. Anything that keeps the rust particles from building up and being rubbed around on the surface would do the trick.

I'll try that next time I have some rust removal work to do.

Is this thread coming from the Twilight Zone? After arguing back and forth, someone else proposes precisely the method I've been advocating - keeping the steel wool wet and wiping the part down - and suddenly it makes sense.

You're right Bill, thin oils work best because they penetrate the rust better. WD-40 works just fine, although thicker oils will get the job done in a pinch.

[brickeyee]

This is a myth transposed from a true bit of advice concerning using steel wool on wood. Wood has enough pores to capture bits of steel wool which will eventually rust. Blued metal doesn't.

You can rub enough steel into anything but highly polished stainless to then allow surface rust to occur if there is not enough oil present to protect the carbon steel.

I have seen it on brushed finished stainless guns, stainless knife blades, and even stainless kitchen sinks.

I remember shoeing a neighbor how to remove the rust on his kitchen sink from using SOS pads many years ago.

I customer had a stainless rifle that was not oiled well and brought in covered with light surface rust.
He regularly used steel wool to "even up" any minor scratches in the brushed finish, and was unaware that the gun needed at least some oil for protection.

[Unclenick]

This is what passivating stainless is for. Etching out the free iron embedded by tooling (in this case steel wool) or other handling problems.

[brickeyee]

This is what passivating stainless is for. Etching out the free iron embedded by tooling (in this case steel wool) or other handling problems.

Not just from tooling but cutting the steel atomic structure itself.

When you cut steel you end up with actual atoms of iron no longer protected by the structure of the steel.

Passivisation removes any exposed atoms of iron and leaves behind the alloying elements to form the protection layer.

[Unclenick]

I thought the protective chromium oxide layer was supposed to reform itself when you cut stainless, but that you had to have the right chromium percentage for that to work well. Also that the truly stainless stuff wasn't tough enough for gun barrels and knife edges, and so the stainless property was partly compromised in order to get other desirable characteristics for these applications. I haven't studied it carefully. I do know from experience that 318 stainless screws have to be passivated after you buy them, or you get rust stain bleed.

[salvadore]

how bout flitz? Is that a good idea?

[brickeyee]

I thought the protective chromium oxide layer was supposed to reform itself when you cut stainless, but that you had to have the right chromium percentage for that to work well.

By removing any exposed atoms of Fe during passivation (often a nitric acid dip) the surface is left with only chromium exposed.
The oxidation layer quickly forms from air exposure.

Cutting tools do not have the resolution of atoms and the atomic organization of the metal.

[Pbearperry]

I have always used a copper penny on small rust spots.It removes the rust and spares the surrounding bluing.Just rub the spot lightly with the edge of the penny.Afterwards I touch it up with cold bluing and oil.

[jimmyraythomason]

Use 0000 steel wool DRY.

The removed rust is an abrasive, if you put oil on the metal surface or on the steel wool, the removed rust is retained and rubbed on the surface which can damage the finish.

I have never had a problem using oil on 0000 steel wool in several decades of using it to remove surface rust from blued finishes. I always use WD-40 and 0000 steel wool to smooth newly blued guns to great affect. If using steel wool dry works for you,great but I'll continue to use oil.

[603Country]

The heavier the oil used with the steel wool, the lower the friction and the lower the abrasion. Use motor oil and you probably won't get much abrasion at all. Light machine oil (such as 3 in 1) or a penetrating oil (WD-40)will allow a higher degree of abrasion. Just have more than one pad of steel wool, and swap dirty pads for clean pads - quickly at first and then slower as the rust has been removed. And wipe off the oil on the rust spot between pad replacements and that'll take off any gritty rust residue that's sitting in the oily patch. You might even want to try a good car wax on the steel wool rather than the oil. However you go about it, go slowly and carefully. If 'slow and careful' doesn't take off enough rust, you can always get more energetic with the rubbing.

[Inspector3711]

I remove rust on blued steel by soaking with with Kroil every day for several days.

I wipe off the Kroil and loose rust with a rag and then scrub the surface gently with green Scotchbrite. I wipe it clean with a rag and still more Kroil then wipe it dry with a clean rag.

I then gently polish with Flitz. The last step is to oil it.

I have yet to visibly damage the finish or have rust return using this method..

[Venom1956]

well since someone briought this back can i ask this. does the thickness of the brass brissles have an effect onn the ability ot scratching bluing? i ask because i am trying to fix up a brown with alot of rust and i am using my brass brush but there seems to be scratches on the bluing already but i want to make sure its not from my brush.

[doofus47]

I agree that 0000 steel wool and oil won't scratch blueing--in fact it takes some effort to scratch blueing even with unoiled 0000 steel wool. That's as expected given that carding/polishing with 0000 steel wool is part of some blueing processes.

Hate to boomerang this topic, but:
I just retrieved my deceased dad's shotgun from the homestead and it has light pitting and (for lack of a known term) "chipping" across the surface. It looks like some raised non-slip grip granules were added to some portions (not all) of the shot gun. It's a raised bump. I don't think this qualifies as "surface rust" the fix for which is described above. Or does it?

I ran some oil over the top to make the orange neon glow go away and make myself feel better, but can I use 0000 steel wool without losing the blue? Really? That doesn't seem possible.

[Chaz88]

It's a raised bump.

Sounds like intergranular or exfoliation corrosion. If it is, oxidation has started along the grain boundaries of the metal and will be almost imposable to fix, without grinding away the metal tell the corrosion is gone. That would probably destroy the gun.

[gyvel]

0000 steel wool and oil is NOT a good combination; However, 0000 and turpentine or 100% pure natural wintergreen oil works wonders. Both of them tend to dissolve the rust crystals and make them less abrasive. Wintergreen oil seems to work better.