Aero M5 (AR 10) jammed up - what do you make of this failure? - Page 2

riffraff · July 25, 2018, 08:22 AM

Thanks guys - I did collect some brass after it happened but didn't see anything odd about it, definitely no missing primers, but then I didn't collect all the brass either.

Here are 5 pictures I'm posting - 4 of each side of the pin hopefully closer up, one of the chamber, which is wet and dirty right now (reason why I haven't put the BCG back in there for testing, need to clean this upper up before I stuff a clean BCG back in there).

Looking hard at the upper, one of the things that boggles me, I do not see any evidence of parts hanging up. Seems if anything hung up the way it was jammed within the aluminum upper I'd have an obvious mark, and I just do not see any such marks. Similarly when this happened the CH was free, I could slide it out an inch or whatever but just couldn't budge the BCG back when I initially tried - so I can say the CH was not related to any jamming.

riffraff · July 25, 2018, 08:24 AM

And last pic of the pin, along with a pic of the chamber - when I clean it good maybe something will appear I guess as well but does not look like someplace where any metal parts hung up.

riffraff · July 25, 2018, 08:28 AM

Oh as far as the gassing, something to mention, this is a rifle length gas system too.

stagpanther · July 25, 2018, 08:56 AM

Your pin and cutout look fine to me--there might be just a tad bit of play of your bolt inside the carrier from the looks of it. However--your picture looks like a ton of brass shavings are being taken off your brass and deposited inside your upper--that could be due to several different reasons. That's no reason to panic in and of itself--but in my experience that's an indicator that the system is "out of tune." If everything is working in perfect harmony--there should be virtually no brass damage IMO.

Make sure the chamber itself is completely clear--those shavings can deposit inside the chamber and cause malfunctions in proper head spacing and other issues can cascade from that.

CarJunkieLS1 · July 25, 2018, 03:49 PM

Could your carrier key be off to the side or maybe gas tube is bent slightly and the key isn't able to slide over the gas tube everytime. Check your carrier key and the end of your gas tube. If it's hitting your gas tube the damage should be fairly easy to spot.

G.barnes · July 26, 2018, 07:31 AM

Since there is a gap between the bolt and chamber. Is your mag sitting up far enough into the upper receiver. The bolt is going to be extended until it gets behind the locking lugs and since the bullet is just lying loose in the chamber instead of being in the bolt. Could the bolt be picking up the round improperly and then the bullet stops the bolt in the middle of the locking lugs. Is there any junk in the extractor claw that could be keeping it from properly grabbing the case lip. Does the extra or look damaged in any way.

riffraff · July 26, 2018, 09:35 PM

So I got everything all cleaned up - inspected it thoroughly, and the only thing I can see that looks like a place where something might have hung up are these two dots that show up white to the left and right of the gas tube. To me they look like alignment marks for assembly or something but are actual marks.

Picture is a little funny, some other dots show in the pic but they are really just microscopic specs of a q tip or the film left from solvent.

I got myself some EWG and EWL, holy smokes is that EWL thick stuff, and lubed the pin/surfaces there w/ the EWG, face of the bolt with a touch of the EWG too, and rest of upper & BCG w/ the EWL. Literally at even at just a 30 degree angle releasing the BCG drops it into action, absolutely nothing hanging it up. Smooth smooth smooth, smoother than other rifles that never jam. Still a mystery to me.

Anything to consider with these marks I'm talking about? Thanks!

riffraff · July 26, 2018, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.barnes

Since there is a gap between the bolt and chamber. Is your mag sitting up far enough into the upper receiver. The bolt is going to be extended until it gets behind the locking lugs and since the bullet is just lying loose in the chamber instead of being in the bolt. Could the bolt be picking up the round improperly and then the bullet stops the bolt in the middle of the locking lugs. Is there any junk in the extractor claw that could be keeping it from properly grabbing the case lip. Does the extra or look damaged in any way.

I didn't see any notable junk, yes some brass specs all over as in previous pics, but nothing that stuck me as really unusual. Not sure how the mag was set.

Now as far as mags, I have noticed some funny-ness w/ AR10 mags. I've got an M&P 10 as well - it will dent the collar (I say collar, I mean where the actual round seats) on every round using my 25 round magpul's, but no such issue with the 20's or 10's.. This Aero rifle does not seem to be so sensitive but at the time I was shooting off the hood of my truck w/ a bipod and a 20 round mag, which if I'm not careful I can rest the mag on the hood and potentially force the mag a bit higher into contact with the bolt carrier *maybe* - do not feel I was doing that, but it's possible.

stagpanther · July 27, 2018, 12:53 AM

It's fairly easy to induce a cycling malfunction if you are "limp-shouldering" in some AR 10 type weapons depending on gas system, buffer set-up etc.

bfoosh006 · July 27, 2018, 07:56 AM

I see standard scuff marks from the charging handle, in that valley..

And a slight one on the right of the photo, mid way up the wall, starting just prior to the end of the gastube... what is that one ?

riffraff · July 29, 2018, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfoosh006

I see standard scuff marks from the charging handle, in that valley..

And a slight one on the right of the photo, mid way up the wall, starting just prior to the end of the gastube... what is that one ?

Thanks for that - I'll take a close look at it again in person but I think what you are looking at is an artifact of something between the cleaning solvent haze, tiny bits of fuzz from swabs & q-tips, a flashlight, and a camera - very hard to snap a good clear photo in there.

riffraff · July 29, 2018, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

It's fairly easy to induce a cycling malfunction if you are "limp-shouldering" in some AR 10 type weapons depending on gas system, buffer set-up etc.

That is definitely possible, as at the time I was trying to sight it in off a bi-pod, in a somewhat uncomfortable position, when I was in a very beat up sort of state. I was not letting it just re-coil and smash into my shoulder but was not keeping it as tight as I'd be if I was simply standing and shouldering it either.

HiBC · July 30, 2018, 06:49 AM

From theOP's first post,I have a hard time getting past this:

Quote:

Manner it was jammed was as follows, sorry excuse my terminology if wrong - bolt was fully extended in the BCG, however there was a full 1/4 inch between the live round and the bolt. The round was "loose" in there, not stuck in any manner, you could slide it in and out of the chamber by tilting the rifle..

I tried pulling on the charging handle and it was stuck

If the round is 1/4 in ahead of the bolt,loose,and can be shaken around,this gun would be jammed if the cartridge was not there.
That eliminates lot of side trips to the weeds.Including "limp shouldering",IMO.
And,IMO, a malady of recoil operated handguns being applied to to a DI gas operated weapons is a bit of a stretch.

I'm puzzled,too,but the testimony makes the ammo and feed cycle ,which are typically the source for jams,irrelevant.

Either the charging handle was stuck on something or the BCG was stuck someplace .The ammo was not stuck or causing anything to be stuck.

And I don't know the answer.

riffraff · July 30, 2018, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

From theOP's first post,I have a hard time getting past this:

If the round is 1/4 in ahead of the bolt,loose,and can be shaken around,this gun would be jammed if the cartridge was not there.
That eliminates lot of side trips to the weeds.Including "limp shouldering",IMO.
And,IMO, a malady of recoil operated handguns being applied to to a DI gas operated weapons is a bit of a stretch.

I'm puzzled,too,but the testimony makes the ammo and feed cycle ,which are typically the source for jams,irrelevant.

Either the charging handle was stuck on something or the BCG was stuck someplace .The ammo was not stuck or causing anything to be stuck.

And I don't know the answer.

Yes very perplexing. Plus the charging handle was free - could pull it back an inch or so what was stuck was only the bcg. And it was seemingly stuck pretty good yet with no smoking gun for how.

stagpanther · July 30, 2018, 12:34 PM

stick your other 308 BCG in and tell us what happens.

riffraff · July 30, 2018, 03:56 PM

Stag - I think I might be better off just running it and seeing if maybe it could be attributed to a debri?

For instance if it has another such problem I could probably go to aero with the upper and bcg set as it's all new parts from them.. or then I could try the new bcg.. but if I put the new bcg in there with no issue it's real hard to say my current bcg has an issue, right?

stagpanther · July 30, 2018, 04:03 PM

Since you bought the entire upper from Aero and only shot factory ammo (I usually only shoot handloads, which manufacturers don't like for some reason that totally escapes me

) I would try some quality factory ammo--and if it repeats the same choke send it back to Aero--there's is no reason why it should be choking on conventional factory ammo unless the ammo itself is defective.

riffraff · September 19, 2018, 12:24 PM

Getting back to the forum, quick update:

Picked up some ewg and ewl, cleaned it, lubed it, and ran it. Same ammo, other ammo, mixed ammo. Hundreds of rounds now and not a single failure of any sort..

Also recently put a second 16 inch aero .308 together, runs totally flawless and I think its become my hands down favorite to shoot - nice light .308 with a 2.5x primary arms acss optic...

What made a difference with my 20 inch, not sure, maybe case fragments jammed it somehow, but I'm now a huge fan of the ewl in my ARs - oil stays where you put it and lasts, cleans off easy after it's all crudded and baked up as well.

Thanks again guys!

July 25, 2018, 08:56 AM	#29
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,771	Your pin and cutout look fine to me--there might be just a tad bit of play of your bolt inside the carrier from the looks of it. However--your picture looks like a ton of brass shavings are being taken off your brass and deposited inside your upper--that could be due to several different reasons. That's no reason to panic in and of itself--but in my experience that's an indicator that the system is "out of tune." If everything is working in perfect harmony--there should be virtually no brass damage IMO. Make sure the chamber itself is completely clear--those shavings can deposit inside the chamber and cause malfunctions in proper head spacing and other issues can cascade from that. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

July 27, 2018, 12:53 AM	#34
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,771	It's fairly easy to induce a cycling malfunction if you are "limp-shouldering" in some AR 10 type weapons depending on gas system, buffer set-up etc. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

July 30, 2018, 12:34 PM	#40
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,771	stick your other 308 BCG in and tell us what happens. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

July 30, 2018, 04:03 PM	#42
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,771	Since you bought the entire upper from Aero and only shot factory ammo (I usually only shoot handloads, which manufacturers don't like for some reason that totally escapes me) I would try some quality factory ammo--and if it repeats the same choke send it back to Aero--there's is no reason why it should be choking on conventional factory ammo unless the ammo itself is defective. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

July 25, 2018, 08:28 AM	#28
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	Oh as far as the gassing, something to mention, this is a rifle length gas system too.

July 25, 2018, 03:49 PM	#30
CarJunkieLS1 Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2013 Posts: 686	Could your carrier key be off to the side or maybe gas tube is bent slightly and the key isn't able to slide over the gas tube everytime. Check your carrier key and the end of your gas tube. If it's hitting your gas tube the damage should be fairly easy to spot.

July 26, 2018, 07:31 AM	#31
G.barnes Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2011 Posts: 182	Since there is a gap between the bolt and chamber. Is your mag sitting up far enough into the upper receiver. The bolt is going to be extended until it gets behind the locking lugs and since the bullet is just lying loose in the chamber instead of being in the bolt. Could the bolt be picking up the round improperly and then the bullet stops the bolt in the middle of the locking lugs. Is there any junk in the extractor claw that could be keeping it from properly grabbing the case lip. Does the extra or look damaged in any way.

July 27, 2018, 07:56 AM	#35
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	I see standard scuff marks from the charging handle, in that valley.. And a slight one on the right of the photo, mid way up the wall, starting just prior to the end of the gastube... what is that one ?

July 30, 2018, 03:56 PM	#41
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	Stag - I think I might be better off just running it and seeing if maybe it could be attributed to a debri? For instance if it has another such problem I could probably go to aero with the upper and bcg set as it's all new parts from them.. or then I could try the new bcg.. but if I put the new bcg in there with no issue it's real hard to say my current bcg has an issue, right?

September 19, 2018, 12:24 PM	#43
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	Getting back to the forum, quick update: Picked up some ewg and ewl, cleaned it, lubed it, and ran it. Same ammo, other ammo, mixed ammo. Hundreds of rounds now and not a single failure of any sort.. Also recently put a second 16 inch aero .308 together, runs totally flawless and I think its become my hands down favorite to shoot - nice light .308 with a 2.5x primary arms acss optic... What made a difference with my 20 inch, not sure, maybe case fragments jammed it somehow, but I'm now a huge fan of the ewl in my ARs - oil stays where you put it and lasts, cleans off easy after it's all crudded and baked up as well. Thanks again guys!