Arisaka - Page 2

tahunua001 · March 6, 2015, 02:55 PM

with all due respect.
1. belonging to a forum does not make you an expert. I belong to Ruger forums, springfield forums, surplus rifle forums, this one, others, I am not an expert in any of those types of guns. the guys that belong to surplus rifle forums are no different. people like GunPlummer and Jim, know more about Arisakas and milsurps in general than most ever will.

2. I have visited that fine forum a few times, it has a nice little summary of who's viewing those pages at any given time, I have never once seen a single member logged in and actively viewing any of those boards at the same time as me, so sure the OP could open an account there and ask the question but how many weeks would it be before he got a reply and how much more reliable would the information he got there be than the B/S he's getting here?

Dragonflydf · March 6, 2015, 04:23 PM

Quote:

So basically this could be just a random mark, a first quality mark (which it means what exactly?) or even rebarreled / rechambered for a different caliber?! I'm more confused now than when I started

It might be a inspectors mark,Look on the build sheet link I posted below, 2nd page, near the bottom of the page on the left side, Second Class marks, item JJ, maybe yours was mis struck ?

If you have the slightest doubt as to the chambering, by all means do a chamber cast and measure it, but looking at the photos, I would say it is 7.7mm.
Here is one of the best things for Type 99 markings http://www.castle-thunder.com/datasheets/99ds2010e.pdf

From here http://www.castle-thunder.com/index.htm

You will enjoy shooting it, one of my favorite rifles is my Type 38 Carbine.

F. Guffey · March 6, 2015, 04:50 PM

Quote:

2. I have visited that fine forum a few times, it has a nice little summary of who's viewing those pages at any given time, I have never once seen a single member logged in and actively viewing any of those boards at the same time as me, so sure the OP could open an account there and ask the question but how many weeks would it be before he got a reply and how much more reliable would the information he got there be than the B/S he's getting here?

There is a chance he will get the same answers from the same experts that are members of the same forms. Occasionally one of them well take off on a rant about the strongest rifle in the world.

F. Guffey

tahunua001 · March 6, 2015, 05:56 PM

but, but, the guys on youtube had to shoot it with an M1 before it would blow up.

BTW, dragonfly thanks for that datasheet, I'm definitely stealing that.

James K · March 6, 2015, 09:34 PM

Hi, Dragonflydf,

Thanks for pointing us at that chart. It is the first I can recall seeing that mark described, though it says it is a "second class" marking, not a "First Quality" stamp. With respect to Gunplummer, that makes more sense. It might be in the interests of an ordnance establishment to use some slightly out of spec parts but to identify them in case of failure*, but military rifles usually would be assumed to be "first quality". The only exception (of sorts) I can recall is the Springfield "star gauge" barrel marks, and those were put only on rifles selected for use in marksmanship competition.

*The Germans did the same thing.

Jim

tahunua001 · March 6, 2015, 10:04 PM

could someone explain the 2nd class stamp for the uninitiated?

James K · March 6, 2015, 10:25 PM

To begin at the beginning, it costs money to make rifles and parts. Usually, special scrutiny and strict inspections are accorded military rifles; a defective rifle could mean the loss of a battle, even of the country.

But a part can be deficient in some way that does not affect its function or durability, and it would be foolish to throw it away when it cost money to make. So inspectors were often told to reject such parts but not to discard them. If someone higher up decided the part was OK, he would mark it with a special stamp, which he controlled, and pass it on to be used. That absolved the line inspector from blame if the part did fail later on. The German marking was "RC" which in this case does not stand for "Russian capture", though it will probably take me a week to think what it does stand for.

Jim

Gunplummer · March 9, 2015, 08:31 AM

I had a 6.5 with a "Second class" or training stamp on the receiver right over the chamber area, but it was quite large compared to the photo from the original post. The Type 38 had been stamped over also. I should poke around and see if I have the Honeycut book in a box somewhere. It is absolutely the best reference I ever saw. "RC" Ha Ha. In the machining world we used FJ.

James K · March 9, 2015, 12:56 PM

The small second class stamp should not be confused with a circle stamp over the "mum" or the "bullseye" government property marking.

The first cancelled the "mum" when a rifle was released for use in the Japanese equivalent of the ROTC; sometimes, the Model number was crossed out also. The second mark, with one circle inside the other, was put on rifles at the factory when they were destined for use by other than the army, considered servants of the emperor. Such rifles were used by police, guards at government offices, factory guards, etc.

Jim

tahunua001 · March 9, 2015, 09:50 PM

I thought concentric circles were destined for other nations, such as the type 30s that were sold to great britain?

James K · March 9, 2015, 10:36 PM

Japan was allied with the Entente during WWI, but its Navy mainly kept the German navy out of the Pacific. There was little land fighting and the supply of Type 38 rifles was more than adequate. But Japan had thousands of the obsolete Type 30 rifles ("the hook safety Jap") in storage and sold almost all of them to England who later passed them on to Russia.

AFAIK, the rifles sold to Britain were standard rifles taken from storage and had no special markings. Whether the "mum" was marked out, I do not know, but I would think it likely. (The aforementioned "bullseye" was put on at the factory, in lieu of the "mum".)

The one I have, Tokyo Arsenal #204, has the "mum" overstruck with the Tokyo Arsenal symbol, not ground, so it was probably not one of the rifles surrendered after WWII. Whether it was one of those sold to Britain, I have no idea, but it has no English marks.

Jim

March 6, 2015, 02:55 PM	#26
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	with all due respect. 1. belonging to a forum does not make you an expert. I belong to Ruger forums, springfield forums, surplus rifle forums, this one, others, I am not an expert in any of those types of guns. the guys that belong to surplus rifle forums are no different. people like GunPlummer and Jim, know more about Arisakas and milsurps in general than most ever will. 2. I have visited that fine forum a few times, it has a nice little summary of who's viewing those pages at any given time, I have never once seen a single member logged in and actively viewing any of those boards at the same time as me, so sure the OP could open an account there and ask the question but how many weeks would it be before he got a reply and how much more reliable would the information he got there be than the B/S he's getting here? __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 6, 2015, 05:56 PM	#29
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	but, but, the guys on youtube had to shoot it with an M1 before it would blow up. BTW, dragonfly thanks for that datasheet, I'm definitely stealing that. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 6, 2015, 10:04 PM	#31
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	could someone explain the 2nd class stamp for the uninitiated? __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 9, 2015, 09:50 PM	#35
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I thought concentric circles were destined for other nations, such as the type 30s that were sold to great britain? __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 6, 2015, 09:34 PM	#30
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Dragonflydf, Thanks for pointing us at that chart. It is the first I can recall seeing that mark described, though it says it is a "second class" marking, not a "First Quality" stamp. With respect to Gunplummer, that makes more sense. It might be in the interests of an ordnance establishment to use some slightly out of spec parts but to identify them in case of failure, but military rifles usually would be assumed to be "first quality". The only exception (of sorts) I can recall is the Springfield "star gauge" barrel marks, and those were put only on rifles selected for use in marksmanship competition. The Germans did the same thing. Jim

March 6, 2015, 10:25 PM	#32
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	To begin at the beginning, it costs money to make rifles and parts. Usually, special scrutiny and strict inspections are accorded military rifles; a defective rifle could mean the loss of a battle, even of the country. But a part can be deficient in some way that does not affect its function or durability, and it would be foolish to throw it away when it cost money to make. So inspectors were often told to reject such parts but not to discard them. If someone higher up decided the part was OK, he would mark it with a special stamp, which he controlled, and pass it on to be used. That absolved the line inspector from blame if the part did fail later on. The German marking was "RC" which in this case does not stand for "Russian capture", though it will probably take me a week to think what it does stand for. Jim

March 9, 2015, 08:31 AM	#33
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I had a 6.5 with a "Second class" or training stamp on the receiver right over the chamber area, but it was quite large compared to the photo from the original post. The Type 38 had been stamped over also. I should poke around and see if I have the Honeycut book in a box somewhere. It is absolutely the best reference I ever saw. "RC" Ha Ha. In the machining world we used FJ.

March 9, 2015, 12:56 PM	#34
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The small second class stamp should not be confused with a circle stamp over the "mum" or the "bullseye" government property marking. The first cancelled the "mum" when a rifle was released for use in the Japanese equivalent of the ROTC; sometimes, the Model number was crossed out also. The second mark, with one circle inside the other, was put on rifles at the factory when they were destined for use by other than the army, considered servants of the emperor. Such rifles were used by police, guards at government offices, factory guards, etc. Jim

March 9, 2015, 10:36 PM	#36
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Japan was allied with the Entente during WWI, but its Navy mainly kept the German navy out of the Pacific. There was little land fighting and the supply of Type 38 rifles was more than adequate. But Japan had thousands of the obsolete Type 30 rifles ("the hook safety Jap") in storage and sold almost all of them to England who later passed them on to Russia. AFAIK, the rifles sold to Britain were standard rifles taken from storage and had no special markings. Whether the "mum" was marked out, I do not know, but I would think it likely. (The aforementioned "bullseye" was put on at the factory, in lieu of the "mum".) The one I have, Tokyo Arsenal #204, has the "mum" overstruck with the Tokyo Arsenal symbol, not ground, so it was probably not one of the rifles surrendered after WWII. Whether it was one of those sold to Britain, I have no idea, but it has no English marks. Jim