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Old March 23, 2017, 12:42 PM   #1
kraigwy
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Revolver: What is it

I was given this gun to fix. I wont. Don't even know what it is, doubt it would be safe.

Anybody have any idea what it might me.

There is zero markings except on the top where is says on one side of the grove notch for the rear sight, SAFETY HAMMER, on the other side it says DOUBLE ACTION.

That's it, no manufacture, no model number, no serial number and the caliber isn't marked.

It is chambered for 44 Russian, that I did find out. Both by inserting a case and measuring the cylinder.

The barrel is 2.420 inches long.



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Old March 23, 2017, 12:58 PM   #2
T. O'Heir
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"...was given this gun to fix..." Give it back. snicker.
Looks like it might be either IJ, Hopkins and Allen, H&R or the like. No parts anywhere for 'em. I'd be guessing the innards and barrel are badly rusted too.
Whole thing reminds me of the H&A .32 S&W junker I have. Similar grip frame. Mind you, it could have come out of Bubba's House of Pocket Pistols too. Anything under the grips?
The .44 S&W American is similar in length to the Russian. Rim diameter was .500". The case length was .880". Vs the Russian's .515" rim and .970" case length.
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Old March 23, 2017, 01:27 PM   #3
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My first thought was that it might be one of the British "Bulldog" class of revolvers, but those were generally marked in many ways.

Same for Iver Johnson, H&R, etc, "name" gunmakers nearly always put their name /logo on their guns. Often patent dates as well.

My best guess, and its only a guess is that it could be Belgian or Spanish made, a copy of the Bulldog style.

IF you need a part (including springs) to fix it, better count on having them custom made.

Also, take a good look at the position of the firing pin, in relation to the chambers, Some of those guns were made for big bore rimfire ammunition..
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Old March 23, 2017, 01:27 PM   #4
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It's an H&R Vest Pocket of some ilk,,,

It's an H&R Vest Pocket of some ilk,,,
The grips and that odd cropped hammer are the tells.

This is a screen cap of the 2010 Standard Catalog of Firearms, page 519.



I couldn't find a pic of the exact model that you have,,,
But I would bet a shiny new .44 Mag cartridge that's what it is.

Aarond

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg H&R.jpg (74.2 KB, 950 views)
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Old March 23, 2017, 03:16 PM   #5
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That's funny I was going to say it was an H & R.
I have a goofy looking 22 by them and the ad for it wouldn't fly today.

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Old March 23, 2017, 03:28 PM   #6
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we have a winner.

Apparently Aarond is correct. In checking H&R they made the Early model vest pocket pistol in 44.

The Grip on this pistol matches the Grips on the H&R revolver. I found it in Jack First, Inc Gun Parts book 13, volume 1, Handgun Parts.

It appears the parts have to be made which will well exceed the value of this revolver, then not sure if it would be safe to fire.

So it goes back to the owner as a paper weight.

Thanks for all the replies.
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Old March 23, 2017, 04:54 PM   #7
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By "fix" I hope the person meant remove the firing pin so someone doesn't do something stupid and blow themselves up...
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Old March 23, 2017, 05:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
By "fix" I hope the person meant remove the firing pin so someone doesn't do something stupid and blow themselves up...
Or not be a "Bubba" and leave it alone and appreciate the relic that it is.
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Old March 23, 2017, 06:14 PM   #9
Jim Watson
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Found it by a different route.
Made by H&R, a spurless version of the American.
Caliber is actually .44 Webley.
Thread with post by Mr Goforth at:
https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/thr...-action.79044/
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Old March 23, 2017, 09:08 PM   #10
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It reminds me of the H & R "The American" - I have one in 32 but I doubt in the 44 it would be called the same. "The American" is usually marked on the top strap - I have the one that was my grandfather's and I used to have one that was "spurless" as they were made both ways.
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Old March 24, 2017, 09:46 AM   #11
Mike Irwin
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You sure it's .44 Russian?

I don't believe that H&R ever made a .44 Russian version of the Vest Pocket, but I believe that they made both .44 Webley/Bulldog and possibly a few in .442 Webley.
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Old March 24, 2017, 10:15 AM   #12
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Mike, I'm not sure of nothing.
Unlike most cylinders this one doesn't have a spot showing the length of the case. Its the same size at the back of the cylinder and the front.

I say 44 Russian because that the only 44 case I have that will try.

It doesn't really matter, its not like its a quality guy someone would shoot.

I talked to the owners and all have decided that it would be a good paper weight as I convinced him if I could make the parts, there is no assurance that it would be safe to fire even if we had the right ammo.

Again, thinks for all the replies.
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Old March 24, 2017, 02:33 PM   #13
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On the bright side, it's an awesome paperweight!
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Old March 24, 2017, 03:00 PM   #14
Mike Irwin
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"Unlike most cylinders this one doesn't have a spot showing the length of the case."

I suspect that that is your answer, really. The cylinder was bored straight through, and it's really happenstance that the .44 Russian will fit...
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Old March 24, 2017, 03:18 PM   #15
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Yes. I think .44 Webley has a heel bullet same diameter as case, so the chambers are straight like nothing modern but a .22.
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Old March 24, 2017, 08:10 PM   #16
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Ear plug gun propelled by primers.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/h27qVNUvaNk/maxresdefault.jpg

Last edited by Mike Irwin; March 25, 2017 at 06:37 AM. Reason: Flipping huge image
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Old March 24, 2017, 09:52 PM   #17
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I am not sure what shooting earplugs has to do with an H&R Safety Hammer.

The H&R "safety hammer" was offered from c. 1888 to 1939 on some small revolvers by to compete with Iver Johnson's "hammer the hammer" safety, but fell far short. The IJ revolvers used a transfer bar to prevent the frame-mounted firing pin from being struck by the hammer unless the trigger was pulled. It was a positive and excellent safety device and is used to this day by Ruger and others. The H&R approach was to simply remove the hammer spur, thus eliminating a point which could be struck to fire a cartridge; nevertheless, it received a patent (360,686 dated April 5, 1887).

The solid frame "safety hammer" was advertised as available on solid frame .22, .32 S&W, .38 S&W, and .44 Webley revolvers, but was also available as an option on some top break revolvers.

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Old March 24, 2017, 10:01 PM   #18
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I have played around with some of the older revolvers. Even if you find parts, they usually have to be hand fit.You are better off making them. I have no idea why you think it would blow up if you repaired it. All of those guns were low pressure cartridges.
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Old March 24, 2017, 10:38 PM   #19
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Those old H&R's are pretty safe with the original cartridges; the ammunition is low powered and there is more than enough iron to keep things under control. While I understand a gunsmith's reluctance to repair the old timers, the real problem is not safety, but the simple fact that spending four or five hours repairing a revolver that is worth, at best, $50, just is not cost effective. If the customer is willing to shell out $300 or so (more if parts have to be made) to repair one of those guns, they can be made to shoot OK.

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Old May 20, 2017, 01:05 PM   #20
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Had an Ethan Allen type once.

I bought an Ethan Allen nickel plated revolver like that once from a fellow gun club member for a dollar, I think it was in .32. It was mechanically broken, rusty and interesting for awhile. Decided to shoot it with another gun. Used my Beretta 92 in 9mm and it just put mild dents into the frame, and the plastic grips flew off.

Then used my Remington 700 in .243, all these shots were done at fairly close range, and yes, I was worried about ricochets. I would not recommend doing this now, but I was younger then. The first hit with the .243 cut right through the cylinder like warm butter, and almost blew the frame in half, the second hit caused the gun to break into more parts, very interesting how the .243 was so much more powerful than the 9 X 19 pistol cartridge.
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Old May 20, 2017, 11:21 PM   #21
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I don't think that is what most folks mean when they talk about shooting guns.

Jim
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