Casting 38 special ans 357 mag

[CastAmerican]

I plan to start casting in 38/357 and was hoping to use the same bullet for both. What bullet weight should I use that would be mid-range for both calibers? 150 grain seems heavy for 38, but average for 357 and 124 seems very light for 357. Should I just settle on using two different bullets? Any advice would be great.
Thanks

[mehavey]

Use Keith type 158gr for both
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...rain-flat-nose

30:1 for 38 Special Low-Mid
#2 for Mid++ to Mag

[CastAmerican]

Thanks for the info! I'm new to reloading so when you mention 30:1, do you mean an alloy ration? And what about #2 for Mid++ to Mag? Again I'm new to casting, so sorry if it is a dumb question. Thanks again!

[Wendyj]

For the 357, 44 mag, 45-70 I really prefer clip on ww lead with about 2% tin added if possible but not needed and water quenched. BHN of around 18-23 depending on tin content. For plinking and lower velocities what Mehavey said. 158 for me with big me plat in front but each to his own preference. Don't let the 125 fool you in the 357. More velocity and shock.

[mehavey]

CastAmerican, there are three alloy/hardness regimes that cover 98%* of all cast bullet needs

30:1 which for all intents/purposes is pure/soft lead with just a "smidgen" of tin to improve ease of mould fill-out. Use it for darn near all low to medium pressure cartridges to maximize the bullet being able "bump up" to fill the grooves upon firing at those pressures. Hardness ~ "6"

Common wheel weights (which if you can find the nowdays) used to contain a little tin/arsenic/antimony wound cast out -- air cooled -- to about 10-11. Very useful for mid+ pressures.

Lyman #2 alloy -- 5/5/90 tin/antimony/lead -- hardness '15' --which can/is used for mid+++ pressures all the way up to 20-22,00 psi as is, and 25-32,000 psi using gas checks. Very useful in the big magnums and hgh velocity (2,200 - 2,400 fps in rifles)

Check out RotoMetals and make it easy on yourself taking some guesswork out.

* WendyJ's use of wheelweights -- as-is (moderate soft) or water quenched (relatively very hard)-- serves well if you have a source.

[zxcvbob]

158 grain is a good weight for both cartridges. I kinda like round nose flat point bullets, like the Lee 90692 (358-158-RF)

[FITASC]

158 SWC design will work well for both as well.

[reddog81]

Pretty much any bullet from 125 to 158 will work. 158 is a good starting point and will work just fine for .38 Special. The Lee 140 grain SWC is a great option right in between the 2 different weights.

[Ben Dover]

158 is excellent for both.

But 50 years ago, I started using Lyman 358429 in 170 grain SWC for both, and I've never looked back.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have found that 158 grain bullets seem to line up with the sights on most guns of that caliber regardless of velocity out to 25 yards or so.

[mikld]

The 158 gr bullet is the "classic" weight for 38 Special and 357 Magnum. Probably the most popular is a SWC. Wheel Weight alloy is prolly the best all around hardness needed (I've used WW alloy in my Magnums for years and one bullet for my 357 was a Lachmiller 160 gr SWC over a max load of True Blue. Too hot, but didn't lead). IMO, the bullet to gun fit is more important than BHN. I have three bullets I use in my 35 cal revolvers, 125 gr RNFP from Lee, a Lyman 148 gr DEWC, and a Lachmiller 160 gr SWC.
Good read; http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm
Excellent forum answers just about any question about lead bullets ever asked; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

[T. O'Heir]

"...124 seems very light for 357..." The standard 'go-to' bullet weight for .357 is a 125 grain jacketed bullet.
"...150 grain seems heavy for 38..." The very long, long, time standard, Wad Cutter weight is 148 grains.
One or two grains in weight doesn't make any difference. As mentioned a cast 158 is a good bullet for both. You cannot use jacketed data for a cast bullet or the same data for both. You can use .38 Special data in a .357 case though.
Strongly suggest you buy a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. And read the whole thing first.

[CastAmerican]

Thank you all for all of the information. I am excited to start casting and am glad I asked all of you about it first!
So let me know if this sounds right. I will use 158 gr for both, 30:1 for 38, #2 for 357, and use data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

[dahermit]

The standard 'go-to' bullet weight for .357 is a 125 grain jacketed bullet.

That seems to be more true for self-defense than it may be for a .357 Magnum intending for hunting deer. In that case, I suspect a heavier cast bullet would likely be a better choice or at least more popular.

Nevertheless, the original poster did specify "midrange" use.

[FITASC]

I agree; ,the "standard" for both, as I said above is a 158 gr bullet, whether lead, gas-checked, plated or jacketed.....

[Ben Dover]

[QUOTE]So let me know if this sounds right. I will use 158 gr for both, 30:1 for 38, #2 for 357, and use data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. [Quote]

Good. But straight wheelweights work well for both.

[USSR]

CastAmerican,

As has been said, 158gr bullets are where you want to be with .38 and .357 Magnum lead loads. Don't get caught up with "the bullets got to be hard" mentality. Just match your alloy to your intended velocity. The .38 caliber bullet on the right is quite soft (~8 BHN), and came out of my 2.5" Model 19 at 945fps. Let me know what type of lead you have (wheel weights, pipe, etc.) and I will glad help you with an alloy suitable for your intended purpose.

Don

[Mike Irwin]

158-gr was the original bullet weight for both the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum so it is by no means too heavy for either one.

Realistically, though, anything in the 125 to 170 grain range will do very nicely in both the .357 and the .38.

I tend to shoot cast 125s in my .38s and mostly 158s in my .357s.

[mikld]

Not to disagree with anyone but I was under the impression the 357 Magnum was designed around a 140 lead bullet and the "standard" police load for the 38 Special was a 200 gr. RN??

I generally use 3 bullets in my 38/357 revolvers, a Lee 125 gr. RNFP, a Lyman 148 gr. DEWC, and a Lachmiller 160 gr. SWC, mostly cast in WW alloy BHN...

[Mike Irwin]

"Not to disagree with anyone but I was under the impression the 357 Magnum was designed around a 140 lead bullet"

Well... no. As originally conceived by Keith, Sharpe, and others, the .357 wasn't targeted at police but at sport shooters, such as hunters. Sharpe especially was interested in the sporting aspect.

As such, they tended towards heavier bullets, not lighter ones, and virtually all of the ammo manufacturers that loaded the round before WW II did so in 158-gr. loads.

It looks like Peters started carrying the .357 in the 1938-1939 range. The 1939 catalog shows 1 load -- 158-gr. lead bullet.

Remington also appears to have added the round in the same time frame and their 1938 catalog shows 1 loading... 158-gr.

Winchester introduced the round to market in 1934 or so, but I can't find any of their catalogs from that time frame to tell me exactly what loads they offered.

However, this page shows a VERY early box of Winchester .357 ammo, likely from 1934 or 1935, and it's loaded with 158-gr. lead bullets.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...-357-ammo.html

Other weight loadings MAY have been available early on from Winchester, but if anything, I'm sure that they would have been heavier loads suitable for hunting.

It wasn't until after WW II that lighter, high velocity loadings became available, targeted primarily at the police market and with metal piercing bullets.


"the "standard" police load for the 38 Special was a 200 gr. RN??"

No, it wasn't the "standard" police load. It was called the police load (in various names) and was brought out for police, but as originally developed by S&W and UMC in the late 1890s, the .38 Special was loaded with a 158-gr. bullet.

To the best of my knowledge, the 200-gr. police loading was first offered in the 1920s.

[Ben Dover]

MIKLD

the 38 S&W was loaded with a 200 grain bullet. But the special "Standard was 158,

.357 from the start was loaded with 158 grainers. Elmer Kieth designed it as a "SUPER": .38 special.

[Paul B.]

Dang it, I'm not even sure I even want to jump into this mess. The OP asked for which bullets should he try for his .357 Mag. and it's turned into a history debate of some such.

So, for the OP, the two bullets I'd look at are the Lyman #358477 (150 gr.) and #358156 (158 gr.) Both shoot very accurately from my .38 Spl. and .357 Magnums with the bullets sized .359". I started casting the #358156 way back in 1954 for use in a Smith & Wesson 38/44 Outdoorsman loading the Spl. brass to 38/44 pressure levels. The 38/44 was the predecessor to the .357 magnum. Loads were on the hotter side of current Plus P ammo. I still use that mold today.

Personally, I'm not all that fond of a 30/1 alloy as it's a bit too soft for my taste. Frankly, I use cleaned wheel weight metal with a tad more tin added for a BHN (hardness) level of 11. As mentioned, sizing to .359" has worked quite well over the years and at times I've been tempted to try some sized to .360". However, for me it ain't broke so whether I ever end up doing it is anybody's guess.

My pet loads are 5.0 gr. of Unique in the .38 Spl. and 14.0 gr. A2400 in the .357 magnum. I use the same loads for the Lyman 150 gr. bullet. It's a plain base so may lead the barrel a bit but I haven't had too much trouble in that regard. The 158 gr. bullet takes a gas check so leading has not been a problem.

My target load is the Lyman #358495 148 gr. wadcutter over 3.1 gr. of W231. A standard loading is 2.7 gr. Bullseye with that bullet.

Dunno how much help that'll be but it's what has worked for me for over 60 years.
Paul B.


As someone brought up that 200 gr. .38 Spl. police load, I have the mold and the data. Very disappointing. I used one to finish off a cow elk that was down but not dead. At a range of three feet that bullet bounced off her skull. Here were three witnesses to that fiasco. I've though about trying it in the .357 but just another haven't gotten around to it thing.

[Mike Irwin]

"Dang it, I'm not even sure I even want to jump into this mess."

Yes, it's a horrid, horrid mess, taking about both current and historic bullet weights used in both .38 Spl. and .357 Magnum and the history of the rounds themselves. Who gives a flip about context, right?



".357 from the start was loaded with 158 grainers. Elmer Kieth designed it as a "SUPER": .38 special."

Elmer Keith didn't design the .357 Magnum. Neither did Phil Sharpe.

Both men worked with existing .38 Special cases loaded with heavier powder charges beyond .38-44 Heavy Duty loads. It was Sharpe who finally convinced Maj. D. B. Wesson to take on the project formally.

Design of the case and development and testing of the loads was a combined effort of Smith & Wesson and ballisticians at Winchester. It was, I believe, Winchester that recommended adding 1/10th inch to the case, not as a safety measure to keep people from blowing up their guns, but to get the ballistics that Sharpe though the new round should have while doing it without spiking chamber pressure.

Elmer Keith actually lost interest in the heavy .38 Special/.357 Magnum fairly quickly and moved on to projects like the .333 OKH and preliminary work on rounds that would become the .41 and .44 Magnums.

So, back to this hot, hot, mess...

My personal preference for cast load 158s in the .357 and .38 is a Keith-style SWC in front of a charge of WW 231 powder. WW 231 is, by far, my absolute favorite powder for hand gun loading, especially with lead bullets.

If I want to go a bit heavier in the .357 and the lead bullets I'll go to Accurate Arms No. 7 powder.

If I want pop gun loads for my .38 (especially in my circal 1920-1925 M&P Hand Ejector) I'll move to Trail Boss. Trail Boss is my second favorite powder. It's wonderful stuff, especially for my .44 Special.

If I'm loading heavy jacketed bullet loads in my .357, that's when I break out my third most favorite powder, WW 296. I normally reserve it for "time to shift the earth on its axis" loads.

[Mike Irwin]

"the 38 S&W was loaded with a 200 grain bullet. But the special "Standard was 158,"

The original .38 S&W load was a 146-gr. lead bullet. I've not done a full survey, but it appears that the 200-gr. .38 S&W load was introduced to the American market around the same time as the 200-gr. Special load, sometime in the late 1920s.

By 1932 Peters was offering 200-gr. bullets in both cartridges, advertised as "Official Police" loadings.

Truth of the matter is, though, that both loadings were ballistically... lacking.

The 200-gr. .38 S&W load was hard pressed to hit 600 fps. on a good day out of a 4" barreled revolver, and out of a snub, like an S&W Terrier, high 400 to low 500 fps wasn't out of the question.

The .38 Special 200-gr. load wasn't all that much better.



I've fired 200-gr bullet loads in .38 Special and .357 Magnum. They're good for bowling pins, and people use hard cast lead 200 gr. bullets for hunting.

[zxcvbob]

I believe the Brits used 200 grain bullets in .38 S&W cartridge during the war in their Webley and Enfield revolvers. Don't know if they copied us or we copied them.