warm .357 load for 125gr XTP

[148HBWC]

Have power pistol, bought it to load 9mm and 38super; would like to try to make a stiff hunting load, using 125gr Hornady XTPbullets , which I also have on hand. information on Alliant site is kinda thin. Lee info provided with dies doesn't list Alliant. Anyone have experience with this loading? Going to be shooting it in my pre-27 5'barrel S&W.

[ligonierbill]

Too fast. Check Hornady's loads with 300-MP. Only powder that matched commercial 125s for me.

[BBarn]

As stated earlier Power Pistol is faster than the optimum powders for maximum possible velocities, but it can be used. In 4” barrels the velocity difference won't be very much, but the velocity differences will be more significant with longer barrels.

The Speer manual shows a starting load of 9.5 grains and a max of 10.5 grains using their cases and bullets with a standard CCI primer. The Alliant data shows the same load. Definitely begin at the starting load since you will not be using the same brass, bullet, and primer.

If you really want the maximum possible velocity from your .357 Magnum, spend $25 or so and buy a powder so suited. The Power Pistol can be used for assembling nice medium power small game and/or practice loads.

[MrApathy]

might want something other than xtp unless 2 holes,1 in 1 out is your desired effect.

[larryf1952]

Although Power Pistol is much better suited to the .357 Mag than, say, 231 or Bullseye, it is still too fast for high velocity loads.

Power Pistol is a great powder for the 9mm and the .40. But, if you want to safely get 1400fps from your .357 with 125 JHP's (which is what I load), you'll need to go with a slower powder. I use a lot of Accurate #7 and Longshot.

If you want to get up to the 1800+fps range, you'll need to step up to a powder like 2400, 296 or Accurate #9 and a magnum primer.

Be sure to wear your ear protection.

[148HBWC]

Thanking all for helpful replies; I'm going to buy a pound of one of the suggested powders.
Accurate #9 sounds like it would be fun out of the 'ol girl!

[BBarn]

If you are looking for maximum velocity, 300MP is the best according to Hornady and Alliant. I've not tried it. I do know that 2400 and H110/W296 work well in the 357.

[Scoits]

Try the A#9 you will not be disappointed. I have used it for years in the 357 and the 44mag with good results.

[Unclenick]

148HBWC,

If you phone or email Hornady asking for .357 Magnum revolver load data for a specific bullet, they will usually send you their load data for it by email rather than making you buy their whole data book.

Be cautioned that with your revolver you do not want to try to go to the sometimes even warmer carbine rifle loads for this cartridge that are sometimes available. This is why you should ask for the revolver load.

300MP is currently top dog for maximum velocity within .357 Magnum peak pressures.

Note that it is a good practice to check with at least three different sources, if you can find them, before picking a load. Due to differences in the test guns, powder lots, and sometimes even the cases and primers used and whether or not the maximum load was checked for peak pressure on the older copper crusher or a more modern piezo transducer, these can vary a good bit. You use the lowest starting load among them and work up in increments of not over 2% of maximum while watching for pressure signs.

If you use Alliant's data, it is important to keep in mind that the load "recipes" they list are maximum loads. Their print manual (download the PDF) tells you in the front that they expect you to reduce those recipes by 10% to get your starting load.

[Nick_C_S]

148HBWC,

I'm a little late to the party and I know your load purpose is a "stiff hunting load."

It is true that Power Pistol is not going to yield maximum velocity. With that acknowledged, I still feel compelled to chime in with a few points to ponder . . .

Hornady offers factory 38+P ammunition using the 125 XTP with a muzzle velocity of 900f/s (I don't know the test barrel length). The reason I mention this is due to the fact that they most likely believe their 125 XTP bullet will expand with some amount of reliability at 900 f/s. If such is the case, it would also stand to reason that it's possible the stiff hunting loads were talking about here in this thread may well be in a velocity range where overexpansion/disintegration of the bullet may be an issue.

It wasn't mentioned what is being hunted. And I don't hunt, myself. But when I think of hunting with 357 Mag, I think 158 grain bullets - or heavier (heavier through lever-action carbines especially). I find the use of 125's for hunting to be curious.

I freely admit that I tend to load with propellants faster than most other fellow loaders, for a given application. And with 357 Mag, my chosen barrel lengths are 3" and 4" (I have 6" & 8-3/8" safe queens). So I load appropriately. I have been using Power Pistol with 125 XTP's for quite a few years now. I won't give my set charge weight; but let me assure you it's quite sane. The Hornady manual doesn't list Power Pistol, but Speer does. And my set load is much closer to Speer's minimum load than max. My days of making hot rod ammo are long past.

Here's the numbers with my ammo:

1304 f/s through the 3" bbl.
1371 f/s through the 4" bbl. (Both guns Smith 686's)

Knowing the rule of diminishing returns (especially in revolver), I'd guestimate this load would yield 1410-ish f/s through your 5" - maybe 1420.

In terms of terminal performance (proper expansion), I would not drive an XTP (of any weight) beyond 1400 f/s. Power Pistol will deliver that for you.

Power Pistol will deliver 1400 f/s without loading to extraordinary pressures (at least in my experience). I don't see what more you could need. And it will do it without the HUGE muzzle blast, flash, and thrust recoil associated with 300MP. The Power Pistol loading will be much more manageable.

Now if you chose to move to a 158, the discussion changes of course.

Just thought I'd post a little perspective.

[std7mag]

You don't find load data from Alliant listing XTP's because Alliant is owned by Vista Outdoors. Which owns Speer.

Now then Alliant does list power Pistol with a 125gr. Speer Gold Dot HP.
10.5gr. For a velocity of 1345 FPS.

They do not list barrel length.

[Geezerbiker]

I'm not going to give specific data since it's all in the Hornady load book. I've been loading for the .357 mag for over 30 years and once thing I can say is I've had the best results with #2400. For hunting, I think a 158g bullet would be a better choice...

Tony

[148HBWC]

Appreciate all your replies and great advice. Lately have been reloading at the extreme lower spectrum of velocities; .45LC out of Uberti Schofield, .38 special out of pre-war M&P S&W, using Bullseye or Trailboss. Trying oddball stuff, .38 super with trailboss (works!).
Wanting to roll some thumper .357's. partly for flatter shooting, less thought needed for holdover at the distances I would be shooting, (3 to 75 yds), yes, last year waiting in ground blind, buck ran in front of blind and came to complete stop when he noticed me, then turned and ran behind blind, disappearing in the underbrush. Luckily, I had holstered the .357 a minute earlier, I mean, lucky for him.
Other reason for some"REAL" .357 loads is for the ", WHAT WAS THAT!!!'' at the indoor range.
Gunshow today at Columbia County GA Exhibition Center, going to see if I can pick up a can of one the suggested powders.
Will keep you posted
Thanks all.

[NoSecondBest]

I've shot over 50 whitetails with the .357mag in a handgun and I can tell you for a certainty that the 125g bullet is not a good choice. As far as "hold over" from 3-75yds, it's a non issue. You need to check the ballistics of this caliber and you'll find that hold over on a deer sized animal is a non issue. Beyond that distance you need to begin using some hold over. Get a range finder, learn the bullet drop of your load, and/or put markers out at known distances if you're hunting out of a blind or treestand. Just sight the gun in for 50 yards and you're pretty much good to go right out to seventy-five. Even a hundred yards only requires a couple of inches of hold over. I keep reading posts on the internet where people seem to think anything beyond seven or fifteen yards is a long shot and requires some kind of complicated calculations and luck to hit anything. Silhouette shooters have been shooting long ranges for many years and have been hitting targets smaller than a deer out to 200 meters with great success. My longest shot on a deer was at a measured 167 yards and it didn't require any more "magic" than knowing the range and the bullet drop at that distance (about as far as a silhouette turkey).

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Be cautioned that with your revolver you do not want to try to go to the sometimes even warmer carbine rifle loads for this cartridge that are sometimes available. This is why you should ask for the revolver load.

As far as I know, reloading for .357 and modern firearms is based on SAAMI specs for the cartridge and is not firearm based at all. Whether carbine or revolver those specs are the same as far as pressure goes. It's generally the barrel lenght and no cylinder gap that produces the increase in velocity with a carbine, not more pressure created in the chamber at ignition. Whatever is considered a safe published load for the caliber will be safe in either. Many .357 revolver actions are actually stronger than some .357 lever carbine actions and will take more abuse. As handloaders, Max loads will still be specific to the individual firearm, not the platform. If one looks at their book, Hornady actually shows lower max charges for many powders in it's .357 rifle loads than it's .357 revolver loads using their125 XTP bullet. This just tells me they used a real firearm for their testing.

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

148HBWC,

I'm a little late to the party and I know your load purpose is a "stiff hunting load."



Hornady offers factory 38+P ammunition using the 125 XTP with a muzzle velocity of 900f/s (I don't know the test barrel length). The reason I mention this is due to the fact that they most likely believe their 125 XTP bullet will expand with some amount of reliability at 900 f/s. If such is the case, it would also stand to reason that it's possible the stiff hunting loads were talking about here in this thread may well be in a velocity range where overexpansion/disintegration of the bullet may be an issue.

It wasn't mentioned what is being hunted. And I don't hunt, myself. But when I think of hunting with 357 Mag, I think 158 grain bullets - or heavier (heavier through lever-action carbines especially). I find the use of 125's for hunting to be curious.

I totally agree with this. Hornady says it's 125 gr .357 XTP is designed to work within the velocities of 800-1600 fps. I also believe that it's jacket is designed more so, as use as a SD/HD round, than as a projectile for hunting anything larger than small game. If I wanted to use a 125 gr Hornady projectile for hunting deer sized game with my .357, it would be their 125 gr XTP-FP projectile(1200-1700 fps). But like Nick, I prefer 158s.

The reason there are so many different powders and projectiles out there for handloaders is because not every powder and projectile is the most appropriate for every caliber/use/scenario. One mistake many new to the caliber .357 hunters make, is using a projectile designed for SD/HD where the priority is expansion over penetration. Easy to do because there are so many .357 projectiles out there intended for SD/HD, especially in the 125 gr class. I'm not saying 125s do not and will not work for deer sized game, just that I do not prefer them.

As for getting the most from a powder in ammo intended for hunting with a .357, one cannot get much better than the old standby H110/W296.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by buck460XVR

As far as I know, reloading for .357 and modern firearms is based on SAAMI specs for the cartridge and is not firearm based at all.

Just as you find separate load levels recommended for .45-70 for the trapdoor that are around 21,000 psi which is below SAAMI spec, SAAMI standard loads with 28,000 psi maximum, loads for modern lever guns that are usually either 35,000 (Garrett uses this number for their warm lever gun loads) or 40,000 psi max and both above SAAMI spec, and some that are for Ruger #1's that are 50,000 psi, so do you come across carbine-only loads for the .357 and .44 Magnums, or those that are for Ruger revolvers only. No, they are not SAAMI spec, but they are circulating, nonetheless, and are best avoided in a S&W revolver, for which SAAMI spec should generally be treated as maximum.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Just as you find separate load levels recommended for .45-70 for the trapdoor that are around 21,000 psi which is below SAAMI spec, SAAMI standard loads with 28,000 psi maximum, loads for modern lever guns that are usually either 35,000 (Garrett uses this number for their warm lever gun loads) or 40,000 psi max and both above SAAMI spec, and some that are for Ruger #1's that are 50,000 psi, so do you come across carbine-only loads for the .357 and .44 Magnums, or those that are for Ruger revolvers only. No, they are not SAAMI spec, but they are circulating, nonetheless, and are best avoided in a S&W revolver, for which SAAMI spec should generally be treated as maximum.

I wasn't talking 45-70 and antique type firearms. I was talking .357 and modern firearms....see the above quote. The only true "Ruger Only" Revolver loads are in .45 Colt. Both of those examples are just creating confusion in a simple subject. Do I come across carbine only and Ruger #1 loads for .357 regularly? No, I do not and I highly doubt if anyone else does. I've been reloading for both .357 revolvers and carbines for many years and have yet to find a legitimate difference in reloading recipes for either, because in truth, both platforms are of a relatively modern design to the same SAAMI specs. Anyone that loads anything to above SAAMI specs for this caliber is asking for trouble, and doing it at their own risk, regardless of what platform they are loading it in. For the most part, there is absolutely no advantage to loading above SAAMI specs in this caliber in either the revolver or rifle platform. Yes, there are many "over SAAMI specs" loads out there on the internet. The judgement to use them in either platform is questionable.

[BBarn]

Unlike the 45-70 where loads at different pressure levels are published, I believe all 357 and 44 Mag loads are limited to the same maximum pressure. There are some loads where the maximum overall length is varied (perhaps outside SAAMI specs) and/or the brass is trimmed to allow the use of certain bullets in specific firearms. In those cases, those "special" loads will still generate SAAMI compliant pressures when used in the intended applications, and probably in any firearm of that caliber in which they will chamber as well.

[ShootistPRS]

Some manuals, like the Sierra manual list different loads for rifle, single shot pistol and revolvers and others, like the Hornady, list different loads for rifle and pistol loads and then the Lyman lists the same, anemic load for both rifles and pistols.
More importantly some manuals list maximums at 18.0 grains of H110 and W296 for 140 grain bullets and others go to 19.6 grains. When I started reloading, 357 loads were were well above 18.0 grains for a 140 grain bullet and now the same bullet with the same powder has a maximum listed load of 17.8 and 18.0. The powder hasn't changed and the bullets haven't changed but the SAAMI pressure rating has changed. I still use the same load that I began with in the same gun but according to the Speer manual I am now more than a grain over maximum. My 19.1 grain charge of H110 has always worked well in my gun whether I was shooting Hunter's Pistol Silhouette, deer, falling plates, paper targets or just plinking. It is by far the most accurate load for my Ruger Security-Six and after 46 years of shooting it I can still shoot to a one inch group from the bench. I have a little trouble doing it off hand at 67 years old but the gun has not been hurt by the load.

[BBarn]

Hornady and Sierra present their data in the manual in a chart form by velocity (in increments). Publishing the data in such a manner often creates the apparent difference between max loads for pistol versus rifle because the next increment in the chart would require a powder charge that exceeds maximum pressure. Nosler, Speer, and Lyman list the load and velocity they achieved (not rounded off or in increments). As a result, Nosler, Speer, and Lyman nearly always show the same exact max powder charge for both pistol and rifle loads.

The charting by velocity approach used by Hornady also creates the situation where some powders don't show a +P 38 Special load. Once again, that is because the highest listed load is non+P, but the next velocity increment in the chart would require a powder charge that exceeds +P pressure.

Hornady uses a pressure gun to establish maximum charges (for standard chamberings like 44 Mag and 357). It's when those loads are fired in regular firearms to measure velocity, and the charting of data according to velocity increments takes place that the true max charge gets "lost" (or at least possibly rounded down).

It's not my intent to be critical of any Data Manual here. I'm just attempting to explain some of what we see in the loading manuals. Most of my reloading is done closer to the starting load than the max load so I'm not usually concerned with trying to load to maximum.

[Nick_C_S]

Hornady and Sierra present their data in the manual in a chart form by velocity

They do. And I agree BBarn; it's not a good way to do it IMO as well.

But all in all, these manuals still make for good reference data. Information is good. What you do with it is what makes it useful.

[Marco Califo]

While not my favorite format, I do find Sierra's data very useful. Specifically, I use it as a data source for powder selection. Fictional example: 308 W bullet A can reach 2650 fps with HXXX, but you can do 2700 fps safely with VarXXX or an expensive powder from Finland. Sierra makes that obvious. The Western Powders data has the same info type, but you have to look at fps at max load for each powder separately. I found it more quickly clearer by keying in the data for each caliber (rifle and pistol), bullet weight, and powder I have available (or want) into an Excel file, and add columns when I get another powder.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by BBarn

Hornady uses a pressure gun to establish maximum charges (for standard chamberings like 44 Mag and 357). It's when those loads are fired in regular firearms to measure velocity, and the charting of data according to velocity increments takes place that the true max charge gets "lost" (or at least possibly rounded down).

Is this something new? My last Hornady manual shows the data created for .357 was done using a 8" Colt Python/Rossi M92 with a 16" barrel and the data for .44 was done using a Ruger Redhawk with a 7 1/2" barrel/Ruger carbine with a 18" barrel.

Despite what is used for testing, whether an actual firearm or universal receiver/test barrel, all are within SAAMI specs for the cartridge....as are most quality modern firearms from reputable manufacturers. This is why published loads are deemed safe in modern firearms. Max loads are deemed safe by pressure and by a degree of error established by the publisher of said recipes. If one looks at those published recipes giving test pressures, you seldom see their max loads creating max SAAMI pressures. Sometimes, the max charge(as with some magnum type powders) is because no more powder will safely fit in the case. Different manuals display their info in different ways because people are particular about format(as displayed in this thread). I tend to ignore the format and look at the numbers. I also tend to always use three or more sources when developing new loads to even out any extreme differences in loads.

Also displayed in this thread is the fact that many times, because of space, those who create reloading manuals do not include every possible powder/bullet combos. They give the best performing powder/projectile combinations that worked well for them. When I see no published loads in a variety of manuals for a particular caliber/bullet/powder I have on hand, it is generally a clear indication that it does not perform very well and I should move on to something else.

[148HBWC]

Hi all,
Picked-up a can of H110 at gun show,
(Also a bag of reload .45 auto rim and a sweet model 99 takedown in 22 Savage Hi-Power; need to leave my wallet at home next gunshow).
Anyhoo, since the 125gr appears to BE more appropriate for gunfights than deer harvesting, I'll pick up a more suitable projectile.
On the other hand I have a box 147gr XTP .355'' for the 38 Super; my N-frame chambers, fires and ejects the empties, (yay semi-rim). Naw, do not want to get everyone wound up, ill get some .357 boolits.
What about going old school, Keith style SWC, any suggestions?
Haven't used cast with gas checks in many decades, rather not have to deal with leading.
Have any recommendations for a jacketed with similar characteristics as Keith SWC?

[T. O'Heir]

Lee info is Hodgdon's data. Lee tests nothing themselves.
Anyway, you do not require bullet specific data. The 125 grain GDHP Power Pistol data on Alliant's site will be just fine with a 125 grain XTP. Velocities will be different since for some daft reason, Alliant used a 10" barrel in their tests. Just remember that an XTP isn't made for deer sized game. It's for varmints.