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Old October 22, 2016, 11:00 AM   #26
dgludwig
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I would never be interested in having a 16 gauge barrel screwed to a shotgun having a 12 gauge frame; truly a neither fish nor fowl proposition.

Quote:
"That is fair enough, being a personal preference but let me put something out there. My own 16g is a light, folding single shot. One incarnation was a 12g.

"Now, mine weighs about 4.5-5lbs. Doubtless my technique could do with some work (I see a new thread coming up!!), but I can tell you shooting a shot shell was "punishing". It was as, if not more, punishing than the 12g semi auto I also shot (which weighs about 7lbs and has the long recoil system to soak up some of the pain)..."

Actually, my aversion to having a 16 gauge barrel mated to a 12 gauge frame has to do with the "out of proportion" scale of the receiver, not the weight of the gun.
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Old October 22, 2016, 03:19 PM   #27
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44 AMP .- You are, of course, correct. Barrel length, butt stock length and the weight of the butt stock wood all affect the weight and balance of a shotgun (probably any long gun.) The type of receiver metal would also effect both weight and balance - my uncle preferred the Ithaca 37 with the aluminum receiver. As a child I could feel the weight difference between his 37 and my dad's 1897, and I really liked the 37.
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Old October 22, 2016, 04:16 PM   #28
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The 16's limited shell selection is a limiting factor to me. The 20 3" is more versatile and the guns are just as nice to carry. But, now that we have a 3" 28ga, a 3 1/4 16 may happen LOL.
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Old November 4, 2016, 09:18 AM   #29
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I always felt that shell availability ( both buying and borrowing as Lavan pointed out) and cost were the reason for it's decline. You could buy 12's and maybe 20's at every podunk gas station in pheasant or duck season, even on a Sunday.

The .410 suffers the same fate and is not even considered a 'starter' gun very much anymore. Since I only have the full choke .410 that my Dad bought me in my youth, you all will probably discount my opinion.

However even though I always wanted a 20ga, I got good enough with the .410 to beat some 12ga companions to the bird with my .410. I had to beat them or lose the argument about whose shot killed it. And since I pretty much only killed what I would eat, I never understood why you would want any more shot in the meat than necessary. Still don't.
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Old November 4, 2016, 05:38 PM   #30
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QUOTE: "...I always felt that shell availability ( both buying and borrowing as Lavan pointed out) and cost were the reason for it's decline. You could buy 12's and maybe 20's at every podunk gas station in pheasant or duck season, even on a Sunday..."

If the market demand (people wanting it) was sufficient, 16 gauge shells would be found in all the same places 12 and 20 gauge shells are found. Which, again, begs the same question the op posed: "Why isn't the 16 gauge more popular?"
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Old November 4, 2016, 08:10 PM   #31
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And since I pretty much only killed what I would eat, I never understood why you would want any more shot in the meat than necessary. Still don't.
Shot from shotguns fly in a three dimensional "cloud". With a .410 the cloud of shot will be thin in places and may even have gaps at shotgun ranges. Considering that, a .410 will produce more misses, and in the case of pheasants, will create hits that will produce injured but not killed birds capable of evading by running away. I learned that the hard way when I used a 20 gauge for pheasants. When it became apparent that the birds were being knocked down and running away, I switched to a 12 and the number of lost birds became less.
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Old November 7, 2016, 02:40 AM   #32
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I've always thought a 16ga side by side would be pretty sweet. It falls right into that sweet spot between 12 and 20.
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Old November 7, 2016, 07:02 AM   #33
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Which is what my friend had built - with 3" chambers. Beautiful gun, perfect balance between weight and capability.
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Old November 7, 2016, 10:04 AM   #34
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dahermit

No question that a 12ga delivers more shot. But even with a 12, at distance, there will be thin places in the pattern.

I would never wish to waste game unnessarily. I hunted rabbits, doves, pheasants and only occasionally ducks. The rabbits and pheasants would usually wait until you practically stepped on them, to bolt. With doves and ducks I didn't try to take the long shots, so I normally dropped what I shot at. The exception may have been doves....they were a bear to find in a tall field of maize.

You just had to shoot the full choke .410 like it was a rifle, not just point in the general direction of the game. But I was younger then...with better eyes and reflexes.

I don't know why the 16ga wasn't more popular, I never wanted one. I think once a caliber or gauge gets popular with your peers, then people just get the same thing. Double barrels were more common back then, seems to me. I never understood why the 20ga wasn't more popular.
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Old November 7, 2016, 10:19 AM   #35
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QUOTE: "... I never understood why the 20ga wasn't more popular..."

I would say the twenty is pretty darn popular and has been for a long time. Only the 12 gauge has more proponents and that's probably always going to be the case.
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Old November 7, 2016, 11:35 AM   #36
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Well, 'pretty darn popular' is subjective. I like 20's and they may be the 'next' most popular to the 12ga.

I doubt the percentage of 20ga owners compared to 12ga owners is very close. It would be nice to see the percentages of all the common gauges though. I suppose it will vary by region.
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Old November 7, 2016, 07:06 PM   #37
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@dgludwig:

Quote:
Actually, my aversion to having a 16 gauge barrel mated to a 12 gauge frame has to do with the "out of proportion" scale of the receiver, not the weight of the gun.
Back in the late 60's or so, Remington had an 870 20 gauge built on a 12 gauge frame. I believe it was created for skeet shooters used to a 12 gauge weight for the 20 gauge class, so as not to change the weight when shooting either class.

I shot a Rem 870 12 gauge Wingmaster at skeet for a few years before I joined the USAF in 1971. Great gun!

When I came home on leave one weekend to Nebraska I was invited to a pheasant hunt, and my Dad graciously allowed me to use his pet Win Model 12 16 gauge 28" tight full choke while he used his Ruger Red Label 12 O/U. I had never shot it before, but it had a light balance that the 870 did not. I killed two pheasants with two shells with it, one at 60+ yards, using 7 1/2 shot, my Dad's favorite.

I know why Winchester quit producing it because it was too costly to manufacture to compete with other guns, but that 16 gauge was a joy to shoot and even to carry.

A 16 gauge will do anything that a 3" 20 gauge will do.

I think its demise is due to the fact that 12's and 20's fill the spots in between.

Too bad for its demise, but the 16 is a great gauge.

Quote:
However even though I always wanted a 20ga, I got good enough with the .410 to beat some 12ga companions to the bird with my .410. I had to beat them or lose the argument about whose shot killed it. And since I pretty much only killed what I would eat, I never understood why you would want any more shot in the meat than necessary. Still don't.
I wish I could say the same with a .410. I had a chance once to shoot a Win Model 42 in a round of skeet and I did poorly. I watched the owner do 23 of 25 with it and I was in awe.

If you could do what you said, than I admire your prowess. The last pheasant I killed was with a 16 gauge and the farmers waiting at the end of the field when the bird was viewed by them said it was so shot up that they gladly let me pick out the lead.

Kudos with the .410, sir!
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Old November 8, 2016, 07:13 PM   #38
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QUOTE: "...Well, 'pretty darn popular' is subjective."

Well, no. "Pretty darn popular" in the context of the twenty gauge means a lot of people like them. And if they like them, they buy a lot of them. And if a lot of people buy a lot of 20 gauge shells/guns it makes the twenty pretty darn popular, an objective term if there ever was one when one counts the relatively large number of shells/guns actually being sold, as opposed to the lesser popularity of every other gauge being sold-excepting the 12 gauge as previously noted.
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Old November 8, 2016, 08:38 PM   #39
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With me, the 20ga would be more popular than the 12ga. It's easier to handle and carry all day. If the sales were equal to the 12, the shells should be cheaper. Less shot in the meat. Lots of reasons. I'd probably like a 20 double. Gotta give the birds a chance. Went quail hunting with the full choke .410 once. Got one but chewed it up pretty bad. Not good.

I think the 'bigger is better' mentality got the 12 where it is, and the pain threshold kept the 10ga from being king with folks of that attitude. I saw very few 16ga guns in the hunting groups that I was in. And I saw even fewer 10ga 'goose guns'. That seemed to be what the few 10s were mostly used for in the Central Flyway.

I don't know about competition shooting classes/gauges, so if there is one for 20ga maybe that has helped make them more popular. My experience was just hunting, and I don't know if my peers were typical.

I would be interesting to see a percentage for each gauge. Maybe the shell manufacturers would have figures, but that really wouldn't be correct for the ratio of number of guns. The more popular gauges would use more shells by far.

What types of game are in Estonia James?
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Old November 8, 2016, 10:09 PM   #40
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I never realized there was any sweet spot between a 12 gauge and a 20.
There is NOTHING a 16 gauge can do that either a 12 or a 20 can't do better. Neither one may be able to overshadow it in all cases, but between them they surely can.
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Old November 8, 2016, 10:15 PM   #41
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I think that if the 16 was as popular as the 20 and 12 gauges, we'd be lamenting the fact that no one offers a 14 gauge today.
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Old November 9, 2016, 05:41 PM   #42
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I never realized there was any sweet spot between a 12 gauge and a 20.
There is NOTHING a 16 gauge can do that either a 12 or a 20 can't do better. Neither one may be able to overshadow it in all cases, but between them they surely can.
Well, maybe the 16 is not a "sweet spot", but the OP was inquiring about the 16, insofar as if it "still packs a heck of a punch".

Whether you like or dislike the 16 insofar as comparisons between the 12 and the 20 (and you have to be talking about a 3" 20) matters not. The guy owns a 16 and wants to know how well it stands up.

I made my longest pheasant kill in 1972 in a Nebraska cornfield at 60+ yards using a 1932 Winchester Model 12 16 gauge full choke with 1 oz. of #7 1/2 shot. It was basically a skeet low-house bird at station 4 but at 3 times the distance. Feathers flew and the bird was badly shot up.

It was my father's gun and I used it while home on leave from the USAF. My main gun was a Remington 870 12 gauge IC choke left back in my home station in Kansas.

To the OP: if you can find suitable ammo for your purposes, the 16 will do you well unless you want to kill high flying ducks and geese.

When I was a kid, I hunted with a break-open single-shot 2 3/4" 20 gauge Springfield/Stevens and it worked just fine. Just have to make sure the first shot is good because it is a slow reload.
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Old November 9, 2016, 10:43 PM   #43
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The OP asked:
Quote:
Why isn't 16g more popular?
Many valid reasons were offered.
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Old November 10, 2016, 12:15 AM   #44
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What types of game are in Estonia James?
Duck, geese, partridge, grouse, rabbit, beaver, pine marten etc.
Then boar, lynx, roe and red deer, wolf, bear, elk (moose) and grey seal...
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Old November 10, 2016, 08:41 AM   #45
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I love the 16 and my favorite is an early 70's Belgian A-5. The trouble is I don't seem to be able to find #5 shot in the 16g. I hand load for rifle and handgun, but not for shotgun shells.
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Old November 10, 2016, 11:44 AM   #46
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Then maybe it's time to start!
A MEC Jr. used runs anywhere from 50-100, wads are cheap; possible that one of your pistol powders might work for your loads, and shot has come down lately.......
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Old December 20, 2016, 09:20 AM   #47
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The trouble is I don't seem to be able to find #5 shot in the 16g. I hand load for rifle and handgun, but not for shotgun shells.
I am looking at getting a used Ithaca 37 in 16g so I went to look for ammo. It seems like it is everywhere. There are 7 types of #5 shot on Midway, over 60 total loadings. About half of it is out of stock. So I emailed Midway. They told me it sells well and they have a hard time keeping it in stock lately so they are increasing their buys. Brownells has 32 loadings in stock.
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Old December 20, 2016, 10:29 AM   #48
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You might as well ask an Englishman "why isn't 20 ga more popular."
If he is a traditionalist, he will show you his 5 1/4 lb 12 ga and its 2 inch 7/8 oz shells.

As said, shotguns operate over a narrow velocity range. In the black powder - bulk smokeless era, they operated over a narrow shot charge range. The stairstep of gauges was needed to give a selection of loads.
Progressive dense smokeless lets us have the light shot high velocity loads seen at Cheapmart and International Trap, and also the magnums with heavy shot loads at standard velocity. Better powder, fewer gauges.
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Old December 20, 2016, 10:01 PM   #49
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I have 8 long guns squeezed into a 7 gun cabinet. I need to get rid of one and the two prospects are single shotguns from 1948 and 1950. The 16 gauge is nicer than the 20 gauge so I went to Walmart (the only place in the county) to check on the availability of ammo. There was a fair amount of variety for the 20 gauge and lots of variety for my 12 gauges but the only choice for 16 gauge was 2 different brands of #6 shot. The cheapest 16 gauge shells were 50% more than the cheapest 12 gauge shells. I think I will sell or trade a very nice old 16 gauge shotgun even though that was the gauge my Dad always had.
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Old December 20, 2016, 10:30 PM   #50
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I think military & police applications tend to sway the guns (and calibers) more than physics or actual merit. 30-06 and .308 are popular because they are military cartridges, even though it's proven that some 6.5mm or 7mm rifle calibers are flatter shooting, less recoil and provide most of the same oomph. Likewise for shotguns. 12ga is the standard for self-defense so 16ga is just too close to bother. Granted that doesn't necessarily translate to bird shooting, but it DOES explain why 12ga is king.
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