Why isn't 16g more popular?

Pond, James Pond · October 16, 2016, 02:59 AM

Perhaps the other question there is why is 12g top of the pile?

I have both. A 12g semi and a 16g single-shot. They were my grandfather's and are also the reason I initially went through the firearms licensing process. Sadly, they're also the guns I shoot least.

I hope to change that.

Anyway, when I compare the guns, the 12g is certainly impressive, but then I look at the 16g and think "that still packs a heck of a punch!" A slug about 2/3 of an inch across with about 2000ft/lbs.

Like for like, guns will be a tad lighter as will cartridges, so why are they not more popular? I rarely see any posts about them.

FITASC · October 16, 2016, 07:39 AM

In Europe, the 16 is more popular than here. Its downfall started with the advent of the 3" 20 gauge and when makers started putting the 16 on a 12 gauge frame, negating its best features.

That said, if ALL I did was hunt upland birds, I'd want a 16 on a 20 gauge frame and a 28 on a 28 frame.

Where it shines in Europe is on the drillings and similar guns where you might be afield for both birds and game. Those guns can weigh the equal of a 12m but with a third rifle barrel.

The 12 will still reign supreme overall as it can handle ammo from 3/4oz up past 1-1/2, chamber ammo from 2" to 3.5". For regular upland bird hunting, a 20 capable of 3" ammo can take anything the 16 can in a lighter package.

243winxb · October 16, 2016, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Why isn't 16ga more popular?

There is no competition that requires it, in the USA.

Virginian · October 16, 2016, 08:44 AM

1) It was never included in all gauge Skeet competition.
2) With the demise of popularity of the SxS action in the U.S., most 16s got built on 12 gauge sized actions, negating any weight or handling advantage over a 12, and in many cases they are even heavier than the same model 12.
3) With the advances in shotshells, both lighter 12 gauge loads and 3" 20 gauge loads, the 16 is overlapped from both ends performance wise (and do not tell me a 3" 20 loaded with modern quality shotshells will not perform). People starting out usually get a 12, and then a 20, and can't seem to justify a 16 it would appear to me. All of the handling advantages of a 16 touted by their admirers can be at least equalled by a good 20.

While they do have a hard core cadre of adherents, the 16 is not growing in popularity, and I believe it is slowly declining as the older crowd that did love them dies off. (I am in that older crowd, but never took to the 16) Ready availability of a wide variety of shotshell loads is not a plus for the 16 either. There is certainly nothing wrong with a 16, but it lacks a signature drawing feature these days.
Also, gun buying motives are not always entirely logical. I'm a 28 gauge fan.

Jim Watson · October 16, 2016, 09:34 AM

I think the guys cover the situation well.
You can blame much of the decline of the 16 gauge on Francis E. Sell, who was a tireless promoter of the 20 gauge Magnum in the 1960s.

I have one young friend who is a 16 ga enthusiast and there are a lot of people hereabouts who consider the Browning Sweet 16 to be the acme of shotgun design. Browning/FN periodically tries to capitalize on that tradition, you can actually get a 16 ga Citori.

FITASC · October 16, 2016, 09:50 AM

Quote:

It was never included in all gauge Skeet competition.

I have had an old timer (now mid 90s) tell me that when skeet first started, the 16 gauge WAS included and there were 5 bore sizes. I have not been able to confirm or deny that however.

One thing that didn't help was never making a 3" version - that might have helped stave off the decline for a while.

I have one friend who loves the 16 so much he had a custom 3" SxS model built and is having custom 3" brass hulls made specifically for pheasant hunting, able to go to 1-1/4oz or more. Gun will weigh right at 6# 12 oz or so.

More info can be found here:
http://www.16ga.com/home.html

shootniron · October 16, 2016, 10:49 AM

Cause it died, 30yrs ago.

BigJimP · October 16, 2016, 11:50 AM

Back in the day - we did not have the variety of shells we have today in 12ga and 20ga....so the 16ga filled a niche, with its typical 1oz loads ( between the 1 1/8 oz of the 12ga ...and the 7/8oz in the 20ga ).

Back in the day, all of our guns were fixed chokes...so we had a Duck gun, a Grouse gun, a Pheasant gun, etc...

When changeable screw in chokes came around ..you could now get one gun ( and it was typically a 12ga ) that could do everything because you could change the choke - and the demand increased for a wider variety of shells in 12ga and 20ga.../ dropping the 12ga down to 1 oz ...and increasing the 20ga to 1 oz ...and the 16ga got left out.

As well as what other folks mentioned -- competition left it out, mfg's altered the sizes of their traditional frames, etc...

eastbank · October 16, 2016, 12:11 PM

i think i have some older factory 16ga shot shells that are loaded with 1-1/4 oz #6 shot. eastbank.

Pond, James Pond · October 16, 2016, 03:02 PM

For some reason I like it. My own is a single shot with, like, two and a half moving parts. I like the simplicity! The cartridge seems to gel with that simplicity of purpose... to my mind at least.

jmr40 · October 16, 2016, 06:55 PM

I understand the WHY. As stated it is simply is too close to 12 and 20 performance and offers no advantages over either. It is just ironic to me that at least most hunters are perfectly content to have only 2 shotgun gauges, 12 and 20, and simply choose different ammo for the task at hand.

But with rifles, we split hairs. The 30-06 case alone has been morphed into offerings in 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 33, 35 and 36 calibers. Not counting the same calibers in other cartridge cases. And most shooters will argue endlessly that their chosen one is significantly better than the others when they could also choose different ammo and make at most 2 of these cover all bases.

Old Bill Dibble · October 18, 2016, 03:02 PM

12/20/410 do it all. Don't need any more.

Quote:

But with rifles, we split hairs.

We do with shotguns in a way. There are dozens of different sizes of shot with different applications for each in a range. Shotguns are different in that they pretty much all shoot the same size and type projectiles.

Rifles do different things at longer distances. The types of projectiles are near endless in variety. You don't target shoot at paper targets much with a shotgun. You don't hunt cape buffalo or moose across a tundra with one either.

Quote:

And most shooters will argue endlessly that their chosen one is significantly better than the others when they could also choose different ammo and make at most 2 of these cover all bases.

Really? Start a thread about the best shotgun shell for Home Defense. Is it bird shot, pepper spray, rubber balls, slugs, #1, 2, 4 or 000 buck? There are many more arguments about the ammo then about how many projectiles the gun will shoot at a time.

FITASC · October 18, 2016, 03:15 PM

Quote:

12/20/410 do it all. Don't need any more.

So do just the 16 and 28.......

and they have that magical "square load" (Too bad most 16s are on 12 frames and most 28s are on 20 frames though)

**44 AMP** · October 20, 2016, 12:36 PM

One thing about shotguns that does not apply to rifles or handguns, is that they all shoot at about the same speed.

With rifles & pistols, more velocity means an increase in usable performance (power, range, etc.) With shotguns this is NOT the case. Higher velocity can actually reduce the effectiveness of a shot charge.

Push too fast, and your pattern goes to crap. Magnum shotshells don't shoot significantly faster, they shoot heavier shot charges at the same speed.

As has been pointed out, today, guns the same size as the 16 (12 ga) shoot more shot (larger pattern, increased chance of hits), and smaller lighter guns (20ga) can shoot as much shot as the 16 with the longer 3" shells

SO, for effectiveness, the 16 is basically out performed on the larger end, and matched on the smaller end.

I respect the 16ga, my first "deer gun" was an old, beat up single shot 16 with slugs. Absolutely, they will work, and work well. Today it's just another slowly fading old round who's niche has been overlapped by 12 & 20, and overtaken by time. Today, the 16ga, in the US, is basically a nostalgia gun.

and other than not finding ammo in wide variety, everywhere possible, there's nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.

B.L.E. · October 20, 2016, 05:20 PM

Well, let me put it this way.

12 gauge reloading data.

16 gauge reloading data.

It's become like that bar where nobody goes to anymore because nobody goes there anymore. It could just as easily been the other way around.

FITASC · October 20, 2016, 06:59 PM

Just because a 12 has more reloading data, doesn't mean it is always the best choice for a given application. Sometimes specific situations are better served with a gun tasked specifically for the purpose. I have seen situations where a jack-of-all-trades gun is a master of none.

Old Bill Dibble · October 20, 2016, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Just because a 12 has more reloading data, doesn't mean it is always the best choice for a given application.

12/20/410 - If you can't do it with one of those you don't need a shotgun you need something else.

FITASC · October 20, 2016, 07:18 PM

And as I said earlier, 16 and 28 will do a lot as well.

dgludwig · October 21, 2016, 12:52 PM

QUOTE: "... Its downfall started with the advent of the 3" 20 gauge and when makers started putting the 16 on a 12 gauge frame, negating its best features..."

These are the best two reasons, imo, for the 16 gauge's lack of popularity. I would never be interested in having a 16 gauge barrel screwed to a shotgun having a 12 gauge frame; truly a neither fish nor fowl proposition.

Pond, James Pond · October 21, 2016, 01:07 PM

Quote:

I would never be interested in having a 16 gauge barrel screwed to a shotgun having a 12 gauge frame; truly a neither fish nor fowl proposition.

That is fair enough, being a personal preference but let me put something out there. My own 16g is a light, folding single shot. One incarnation was a 12g.

Now, mine weighs about 4.5-5lbs. Doubtless my technique could do with some work (I see a new thread coming up!!), but I can tell you shooting a shot shell was "punishing". It was as, if not more, punishing than the 12g semi auto I also shot (which weighs about 7lbs and has the long recoil system to soak up some of the pain).

Hence, I am not overly excited about shooting slugs out of it, but I want to know if it is up to the task from a hunting perspective and so one thing is certain, I am glad it is not the 12g version...

I have no doubt that the slugs at the anticipated 2000fps would bring down most things (if not all) in an Estonian forest so why would I pummel my shoulder any more than necessary?

That is one reason why I actually prefer it over the 12g: it makes a gun shootable whereas a 12g version would probably have become a "safe-resident" only.

lefteye · October 21, 2016, 01:42 PM

I suspect shot regulation has reduced the demand for the 16 gauge. In addition, with the exception of the Ithaca Model 37 with the aluminum receiver, the difference in weight between a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge with the same action type would be minimal. Manufacturers have simply responded to the market (and the market demand has responded to the supply of the product.)

**44 AMP** · October 22, 2016, 12:01 AM

Quote:

the difference in weight between a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge with the same action type would be minimal.

True, but that "minimal" difference MIGHT make a change in the way the gun FEELS. Might not, but could, depending on the gun and the shooter.

There's more to the weight than just what it takes to carry it, there is also the balance of how it handles in the hands, and how it mounts and swings.

Some can't tell any difference, others can.

Lavan · October 22, 2016, 12:22 AM

Because when I hunted doves with a 16 back in the fifties, I couldn't "borrow" any shells from anyone else when I ran out.

A pause for the COZ · October 22, 2016, 08:20 AM

My Gramps had a Winchester 16 ga. for every day shotgunning and when he wanted to go Goose hunting out came the 12 ga.

He gave that 16ga to my cousin.... He pawned it!!!!

I would give almost anything to have that winchester.
I did get the 12 ga and still have it. Always will.

I still get in fights with Cuz about the 16ga.

johnwilliamson062 · October 22, 2016, 10:54 AM

I wondered also and did a bit searching in the past.

In various competition rules and laws 12ga is the max bore allowable, so it is the standard b/c it offers a perceived advantage.

With modern manufacturing the slow selling models were sold on the more standard frames. This negated any advantage.

What factory load do you want to shoot out of a 16ga that isn't available in a 12ga?

October 16, 2016, 07:39 AM	#2
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	In Europe, the 16 is more popular than here. Its downfall started with the advent of the 3" 20 gauge and when makers started putting the 16 on a 12 gauge frame, negating its best features. That said, if ALL I did was hunt upland birds, I'd want a 16 on a 20 gauge frame and a 28 on a 28 frame. Where it shines in Europe is on the drillings and similar guns where you might be afield for both birds and game. Those guns can weigh the equal of a 12m but with a third rifle barrel. The 12 will still reign supreme overall as it can handle ammo from 3/4oz up past 1-1/2, chamber ammo from 2" to 3.5". For regular upland bird hunting, a 20 capable of 3" ammo can take anything the 16 can in a lighter package. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 16, 2016, 08:44 AM	#4
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	1) It was never included in all gauge Skeet competition. 2) With the demise of popularity of the SxS action in the U.S., most 16s got built on 12 gauge sized actions, negating any weight or handling advantage over a 12, and in many cases they are even heavier than the same model 12. 3) With the advances in shotshells, both lighter 12 gauge loads and 3" 20 gauge loads, the 16 is overlapped from both ends performance wise (and do not tell me a 3" 20 loaded with modern quality shotshells will not perform). People starting out usually get a 12, and then a 20, and can't seem to justify a 16 it would appear to me. All of the handling advantages of a 16 touted by their admirers can be at least equalled by a good 20. While they do have a hard core cadre of adherents, the 16 is not growing in popularity, and I believe it is slowly declining as the older crowd that did love them dies off. (I am in that older crowd, but never took to the 16) Ready availability of a wide variety of shotshell loads is not a plus for the 16 either. There is certainly nothing wrong with a 16, but it lacks a signature drawing feature these days. Also, gun buying motives are not always entirely logical. I'm a 28 gauge fan. __________________ What could have happened... did.

October 16, 2016, 03:02 PM	#10
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	For some reason I like it. My own is a single shot with, like, two and a half moving parts. I like the simplicity! The cartridge seems to gel with that simplicity of purpose... to my mind at least. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

October 20, 2016, 12:36 PM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,818	One thing about shotguns that does not apply to rifles or handguns, is that they all shoot at about the same speed. With rifles & pistols, more velocity means an increase in usable performance (power, range, etc.) With shotguns this is NOT the case. Higher velocity can actually reduce the effectiveness of a shot charge. Push too fast, and your pattern goes to crap. Magnum shotshells don't shoot significantly faster, they shoot heavier shot charges at the same speed. As has been pointed out, today, guns the same size as the 16 (12 ga) shoot more shot (larger pattern, increased chance of hits), and smaller lighter guns (20ga) can shoot as much shot as the 16 with the longer 3" shells SO, for effectiveness, the 16 is basically out performed on the larger end, and matched on the smaller end. I respect the 16ga, my first "deer gun" was an old, beat up single shot 16 with slugs. Absolutely, they will work, and work well. Today it's just another slowly fading old round who's niche has been overlapped by 12 & 20, and overtaken by time. Today, the 16ga, in the US, is basically a nostalgia gun. and other than not finding ammo in wide variety, everywhere possible, there's nothing wrong with that as far as I can see. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 20, 2016, 05:20 PM	#15
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Well, let me put it this way. 12 gauge reloading data. 16 gauge reloading data. It's become like that bar where nobody goes to anymore because nobody goes there anymore. It could just as easily been the other way around. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

October 16, 2016, 02:59 AM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Why isn't 16g more popular? Perhaps the other question there is why is 12g top of the pile? I have both. A 12g semi and a 16g single-shot. They were my grandfather's and are also the reason I initially went through the firearms licensing process. Sadly, they're also the guns I shoot least. I hope to change that. Anyway, when I compare the guns, the 12g is certainly impressive, but then I look at the 16g and think "that still packs a heck of a punch!" A slug about 2/3 of an inch across with about 2000ft/lbs. Like for like, guns will be a tad lighter as will cartridges, so why are they not more popular? I rarely see any posts about them. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; October 16, 2016 at 03:04 PM. Reason: A conjunction had gone AWOL

October 16, 2016, 09:34 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	I think the guys cover the situation well. You can blame much of the decline of the 16 gauge on Francis E. Sell, who was a tireless promoter of the 20 gauge Magnum in the 1960s. I have one young friend who is a 16 ga enthusiast and there are a lot of people hereabouts who consider the Browning Sweet 16 to be the acme of shotgun design. Browning/FN periodically tries to capitalize on that tradition, you can actually get a 16 ga Citori.

October 16, 2016, 10:49 AM	#7
shootniron Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,599	Cause it died, 30yrs ago.

October 16, 2016, 11:50 AM	#8
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Back in the day - we did not have the variety of shells we have today in 12ga and 20ga....so the 16ga filled a niche, with its typical 1oz loads ( between the 1 1/8 oz of the 12ga ...and the 7/8oz in the 20ga ). Back in the day, all of our guns were fixed chokes...so we had a Duck gun, a Grouse gun, a Pheasant gun, etc... When changeable screw in chokes came around ..you could now get one gun ( and it was typically a 12ga ) that could do everything because you could change the choke - and the demand increased for a wider variety of shells in 12ga and 20ga.../ dropping the 12ga down to 1 oz ...and increasing the 20ga to 1 oz ...and the 16ga got left out. As well as what other folks mentioned -- competition left it out, mfg's altered the sizes of their traditional frames, etc...

October 16, 2016, 12:11 PM	#9
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i think i have some older factory 16ga shot shells that are loaded with 1-1/4 oz #6 shot. eastbank.

October 16, 2016, 06:55 PM	#11
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	I understand the WHY. As stated it is simply is too close to 12 and 20 performance and offers no advantages over either. It is just ironic to me that at least most hunters are perfectly content to have only 2 shotgun gauges, 12 and 20, and simply choose different ammo for the task at hand. But with rifles, we split hairs. The 30-06 case alone has been morphed into offerings in 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 33, 35 and 36 calibers. Not counting the same calibers in other cartridge cases. And most shooters will argue endlessly that their chosen one is significantly better than the others when they could also choose different ammo and make at most 2 of these cover all bases.

October 20, 2016, 06:59 PM	#16
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	Just because a 12 has more reloading data, doesn't mean it is always the best choice for a given application. Sometimes specific situations are better served with a gun tasked specifically for the purpose. I have seen situations where a jack-of-all-trades gun is a master of none. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 20, 2016, 07:18 PM	#18
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	And as I said earlier, 16 and 28 will do a lot as well. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 21, 2016, 12:52 PM	#19
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	QUOTE: "... Its downfall started with the advent of the 3" 20 gauge and when makers started putting the 16 on a 12 gauge frame, negating its best features..." These are the best two reasons, imo, for the 16 gauge's lack of popularity. I would never be interested in having a 16 gauge barrel screwed to a shotgun having a 12 gauge frame; truly a neither fish nor fowl proposition. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

October 21, 2016, 01:42 PM	#21
lefteye Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Posts: 1,433	I suspect shot regulation has reduced the demand for the 16 gauge. In addition, with the exception of the Ithaca Model 37 with the aluminum receiver, the difference in weight between a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge with the same action type would be minimal. Manufacturers have simply responded to the market (and the market demand has responded to the supply of the product.) __________________ Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70) NRA Life Member RMEF Life Member

October 22, 2016, 12:22 AM	#23
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Because when I hunted doves with a 16 back in the fifties, I couldn't "borrow" any shells from anyone else when I ran out.

October 22, 2016, 08:20 AM	#24
A pause for the COZ Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2012 Location: Braham, Minnesota Posts: 1,314	My Gramps had a Winchester 16 ga. for every day shotgunning and when he wanted to go Goose hunting out came the 12 ga. He gave that 16ga to my cousin.... He pawned it!!!! I would give almost anything to have that winchester. I did get the 12 ga and still have it. Always will. I still get in fights with Cuz about the 16ga. __________________ NRA life member. US Army veteran, 11 Bravo.

October 22, 2016, 10:54 AM	#25
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I wondered also and did a bit searching in the past. In various competition rules and laws 12ga is the max bore allowable, so it is the standard b/c it offers a perceived advantage. With modern manufacturing the slow selling models were sold on the more standard frames. This negated any advantage. What factory load do you want to shoot out of a 16ga that isn't available in a 12ga?