Reloading for the S&W 460 & 454 Casull

[13thapsotle]

I have reloaded 300 rounds for my S&W 460, split between the 460 mag & 454 Casull. I'm using Hodgon H110 powder and have had horrible results. It appears that this powder shouldn't be used for these rounds. The powder will not ignite in the 454 Casull round and squibs the bullet into the barrel. I have had 3 out of 20 misfire in the 460 casing. All of the reloaded rounds have been loaded 10-20% less than the recommended 'starting load' e.g. 33.1 grs H110 behind a 250 gr Nosler HP. Has anybody else had a problem with Hodgon powders. The best powder I have come across for the rounds the 460 can handle is blue dot, largely because it is a fast burning powder.

[laytonj1]

All of the reloaded rounds have been loaded 10-20% less than the recommended 'starting load'

That's your problem. You're not suppose to reduce H110 below recommended starting load. It does not work well at reduced pressure.
Read and heed the loading manuals.

Jim

[13thapsotle]

Ya, well following the recommended starting load flattened the primers and was so hot that you could not rotate the cylinder so I backed the charge off starting at 10% reduction and now the powder wont ignite. Not sure how much reloading you do Jim, but I have never experienced this problem with other powders. I've noticed the H110 requires several more grains than other powders, thus filling a great portion of the casing. It behaves as there is not enough oxygen and free space within the casing to support proper combustion.

[laytonj1]

I've been reloading for 23 years. Loaded for the 454 in a FA for 8 years.
That said, H110 should never be loaded to less than 90% of case capacity or inconsistant ignition can occur.
Are you using pistol or rifle primers? The 454 and 460 both require rifle primers. Better ignition and a lot less flattening.
Also, my Hodgdon's manual does not recommend H110 with the 250gr Nosler bullet.
I use H110 for all my top end Magnum loads because of the great results I get with it.
And BTW, when I stated "that's your problem" I was implying that is what's causing the problem, not that it's "your problem".

Jim

[Mal H]

Not sure how much reloading you do Jim, but I have never experienced this problem with other powders.

That's because, as Jim correctly implied, H110 (and W296) aren't like other powders. Most legitimate loading manuals do not recommend downloading that powder more than 3% at most.

Also, it appears that you have a misconception that smokeless powders require a little space for oxygen in them. All of the oxygen required is contained in the powder. It would work just as well if the free space in the case was a vacuum.

Primers are rarely a good indicator of too much or too little pressure. What type and brand of primer are you using?

[50 shooter]

You can also try using magnum primers for both the .460 and .454 to be sure that you're getting everything out of both rounds. I agree with Mal, 3% would be the most I would reduce when using H110 for the .454 Casull.

Check www.loadswap.com for different loads for both cartridges, lots of good info there.

[Lost Sheep]

Welcome to the forum, 13thapsotle, and thanks for asking our advice.

Hodgon's web site advises not reducing H110 loads any more than 3% from the max. I don't know what the max is, because the web site has one figure and every loading manual out there has its own set of figures. But it is clear that a 10% or 20% reduction is not recommended by the powder manufacturer or anyone. It is dangerous and you should pull the bullets from any such loaded rounds you have left and reload the primed cases with an appropriate level or an appropriate powder and thank your guardian angel nothing bad happened.

As I understand it, H110 and similar powders require a good amount of pressure to burn correctly. If that pressure is not achieved, the burn is erratic. As you have seen, sometimes not sustaining itself. In other situations it unpredictably produces pressure spikes that have been known to result in catastrophic failure. That is, you can blow a gun into pieces. The mechanism is not well understood, even by experts in interior ballistics, though they keep getting closer to a solution.

That said, if you want to wring the maximum performance out of the volume in your cases, H110 is very good. If you want less than the most brutal loads and highest velocities, other powders will deliver. Ones that tolerate reduced loads more safely.

I reiterate the question of what primers you are using. Rifle primers or pistol primers, standard or magnum?

Lost Sheep

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Here is what your research would find, which I have done for you because it is so important. I DON'T WANT YOU INJURED for lack of proper spelling or anything. (Hodgdon is frequently mis-spelled and I haven't a clue how to pronounce it.)

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
most of the way down this page is this warning:

For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

[Lococop]

Thank God I'm not the only one. I too am having problems re-loading the 454. I too use the H110 but it works great with the 460. Although with my 454, I have tried everything from new casings, rifle primers (reg & magnum) to seating the primer correctly, all at reccommended loads. I've used the 230 grain HP XTP Barnes to 250 gr Hornady HP and they just won't ignite. I'm about to give up on the 454!....

So let me get it straight. If I use more than the reccommended load, the 454 should ignite? Am I understanding correctly? Help me out guys. Thanks.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I load "HOT" 45 Colt loads for my Contender using H-110... haven't started on loading for the Casull much yet... but a good crimp is required ( BTW I've been following recommended "Ruger only" loads from my manuals, & loads in the Colt cases have been accurate, of consistant velocity... & pretty brutal to shoot )... I doubt I'd see much difference betwee the 45 Colt Cases & the Casull cases... which are both Starline BTW... I'm using jacketed lead bullets... it could be possible that the Barnes solid copper bullets are not crimping consistantly in your set up

[13thapsotle]

Thanks for all the input fellas, this is good information. I am using Winchester Large Rifle Primers in the 460 and have had excellent results. The 454 casing does not accept this primer so I am using a Winchester Small Pistol Magnum primer (Large pistol primer doesn't work either). Does anybody know if a small rifle mag primer would be compatible with the 454 round? I am using Hornady brass. What primers are other people using?

[Doodlebugger45]

Yes ABSOLUTELY use the small rifle primers. That is what it was designed to use. I have used Small Rifle Benchrest primers as well as Small Rifle Magnum primers. Either one has a LOT more oompph than any kind of Small Pistol primers.

If you don't want the full power you get when using 110 powder (and you don't really have a choice with that powder), you might try some 2400 or True Blue powder. You can reduce the power level a lot more with those 2 without worrying about the funky nature of 110 powder.

[Mal H]

As Doodlebugger45 said, "ABSOLUTELY use the small rifle primers."

Which reloading manual suggested using small pistol primers? (SP primers being the weakest of all the varieties of primers available.)

As Adam Savage says on Mythbusters, "There's your problem right there!"

[zxcvbob]

You'll probably be better off using a slightly faster powder -- like 2400 or AA#9 or Ramshot Enforcer. I think H110 will run out of room in the 454 case and maybe the 460 before it reaches its full potential. If you keep using H110, don't reduce the charges from what is published, and you might want to switch to small magnum rifle primers.

[mrawesome22]

Gotta love it when someone starts blaming the powder for their own mistakes. LOL!

I am, plus millions of other people, in love with H110/W296 in the 454Casull. Your manual should have told you to use SRM primers and it should have told you not to reduce the charge more than 3%. And I would bet hard earned money that it tells you to HEAVILY crimp those babies. If you would have heeded the warnings, you would have been a very happy camper.

I've used the 230 grain HP XTP Barnes

LMAO!!! Oh brother. I, I, I, oh forget it.

[Doodlebugger45]

Agree with the HEAVY crimp. Moreso than any other cartridge I load for.

A couple other things (454 Casull really IS more complex than most revolver cartridges to learn on). When you get your hands on some of those Small Rifle Magnum primers, make sure you really lean into them when seating them. The metal is either harder or thicker than pistol primers and it takes more force to get them seated that last couple thousandths of an inch. You have to get them slightly below flush with the rim and it's a different "feel" than when seating pistol primers.

Also, be careful of the bullet construction if using jacketed bullets at true 454 velocities. I'm not familiar with the Nosler bullets mentioned. But for instance, Hornady has 2 different 300 grain XTP HP bullets. One is labelled as just "XTP" while the other one carries the label of "XTP/MAG". The first one will work up to muzzle velocities of perhaps 1400 fps or so. Beyond that, the bullet might fly apart as it exits the muzzle. The XTP/MAG bullets are intended to be driven up to 2000 fps or so. Speer also has 2 different types of jacketed construction in the same weights. And I know Sierra has a 240 gr JHP bullet that is fine but not meant for anything over 1400 fps.

Just pay close attention to what you're doing with the .454 when it comes to primers, powders, and bullets and you'll be fine. It's just less forgiving in some respects than loading up 357 or 45 Colt cartridges.

[13thapsotle]

I was finally able to get my hands on small rifle primers and reloaded the 454's at the starting load w/ the H110. The round fires a bit hot and forces the flattened primer back onto the firing pin not allowing the cylinder to rotate. H110 works well in the 460 cartridge. I have my dies set to heavily crimp the bullet.

Thx for the advice on the bullet selection. I have been looking for the Hornady Mag bullets but have yet to find them; just been experiencing with different .451"-.452" bullets.

[laytonj1]

I was finally able to get my hands on small rifle primers and reloaded the 454's at the starting load w/ the H110. The round fires a bit hot and forces the flattened primer back onto the firing pin not allowing the cylinder to rotate.

Hmmm, since the 460 works fine it makes me wonder if the brass you're using has less internal capacity than normal.
At this point I would try backing off one grain at a time till the primers quit flowing back. Or, try a different brand of brass.

Jim

[Doodlebugger45]

Try about 22 grains of 2400 powder with a 300 grain bullet. I shot some of those last night and really liked them. If you are really committed to the 110 powder and the 250 gr bullets, you should be able to use about 30 gr of powder with no problems. I'm not sure where you are getting you data, but as you know, different manuals have different ideas about starting and maximum charges. I saw at least one that had 30.0 gr of H110 as a starting load for a 250 gr JHP bullet.

[mrawesome22]

I was finally able to get my hands on small rifle primers

You're still not using the right primer. And where are you getting you're data? That is a 45Colt bullet you are using!

[Mike / Tx]

The # 1 rule with the 454 is use Small Rifle Primers period. As for your load with the 250gr bullet with H110/296, it is under the minimum load even for the 260gr I am shooting. The minimum for it is 34grs. That is why your having issues with it. Bump up your load a couple grains, and use the SMR primer and you will find it to be very much different.

And yes the 454 will smoke them out there, especially with either of those powders. If those are too much for you then you need to go to another powder which is much better suited for your taste, and possibly a cast bullet to boot. Then you will be able to drop the charge weights and use something more appropriate to your recoil tolerance.

If you think the load your shooting had a pop to it, just wait until you touch one off up towards the max. I generally fill the case to the base of the bullet I am using and sometimes then some with 296, and it shoots wonderfully. The lightest I use is a 260gr mag JHP and it will rock on out at around 2K fps at the top end. Personally I am very happy sticking to the milder bottom end load of around 34grs at around 1850fps. Between it and the 265gr Cast Performance bullet I can use the same load and sight in out to 50yds. Either will do all I need done from muzzle to there and then some if I can hold a good bead.

Which revolver are you using, and where are you getting your data from?

Not trying to nit pic but seems your working from some misguided data. Here is a brief write up on it that might shed a little more light.
The .454 Casull By Chuck Hawks

[mrawesome22]

The # 1 rule with the 454 is use Small Rifle Primers period.

Using H110 you'll need SRM primers.

[Lococop]

So small rifle magnum primers will not work for the 454???

and

the Titegroup is not recommended as opposed to the H-110???

and

how much more powder (exactly) should I use for the 454 loading the Hornady 250 gr XTP JHP???

[zxcvbob]

Lococop,
No offense intended, but maybe you need to get some experience loading .45 Colt cartridges before you try loading a high-energy big bores? Your last post is kinda scary. ==(8-0

[Lococop]

Bob,

I believe this is why we have forums such as these. They are just that..FORUMS. INTENDED TO GATHER PRACTICAL INFORMATION OTHERWISE PROVIDED BY THE MANUFACTURER....which can be misleading. I too reload 45 Colt and the 460 S&W Mag with NO PROBLEMS. It is only the 454 that I'm about to give up on.

Although I take no offense to your condenscending statement, I would much rather receive useful information, but I guess not in this case. Thanks anyway.

[Mike / Tx]

Lococop and 13thapsotle,

So small rifle magnum primers will not work for the 454???

Yes they will work, but so should the standard ones as well.

Nobody is tying to misguide you. I have loaded many thousands of rounds in several magnum handgun calibers, and the 454 Casull is a beast upon it's own. It operates at a pressure as high or higher than most rifle calibers do. I am not sure exactly what the issue your having with your loads is, but we're trying to help.

This is what makes it somewhat picky on what to use. Most standard .452 caliber bullets simply aren't made for the pressure it generates. Primers I use are the ones recommended by Hodgdon in their load data and from the Freedom Arms load data. The crimp your using could be causing issues, if not tight enough.

I am shooting a Raging Bull with the 8.375" barrel and with the mid range loads listed on either site they are a handful. I shoot basically only two bullets at this time, one is a 260gr Mag JHP, and the other is the Cast Performance 265gr WFNGC, and both are loaded using a starting load of 34grs of 296, in Starline cases, and lit off with either Win SR or CCI SR Mag primers. I have no issues getting lift off with any of these loads. I have approached the max loads listed on both mentioned sites for these bullet weights and feel that if I need to go there fine, but I haven't had anything crawl off form the one I am shooting so no need to punish myself needlessly.