The 45 colt: Old but still useful?

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The .41Mag?? same as the .357 but more...of everything,

Except common use, guns, ammo availability, and price.

[BBarn]

I have only one 45 Colt. I enjoy shooting it, but it does have what I consider to be a number of drawbacks when loaded to SAA pressure levels.

1) Modern brass is strong and the cases fail to expand and fill the cylinder, leading to a lot of soot on fired cases.

2) Jacketed bullets aren't well suited to standard pressure loads. Maximum loads aren't far above the levels needed to push the bullet fully out of the barrel. Cast and swaged lead bullets work better at the standard power/pressure levels.

3) Downloading, even with lead bullets, amplifies the above issues.

4) Many modern smokeless powders (except for Trail Boss) result in poor case fill. Some of the "magnum" powders (like 2400 and IMR4227) provide decent case fill, but generally result in considerable residue and poor combustion. Even bulky "classic" powders like Herco reach only about 50% case fill at standard 45 Colt pressure levels.

The 45 Colt improves with modern brass and powders when combined with the higher pressure levels available to those who shoot Rugers, TCs, and a few other revolvers.

In my limited experience with most modern components, the 45 Colt is just getting started when used with lead bullets at top SAA load levels. And for those with stronger guns, very nice loads can be developed for both stout lead and jacketed bullets at higher pressure levels.

Bottom line (for me) is it's a fun round when used at medium power levels (and above), but I think there are much better caliber choices for powder puff and "cowboy" loads.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by BBarn

I have only one 45 Colt. I enjoy shooting it, but it does have what I consider to be a number of drawbacks when loaded to SAA pressure levels.

1) Modern brass is strong and the cases fail to expand and fill the cylinder, leading to a lot of soot on fired cases.

2) Jacketed bullets aren't well suited to standard pressure loads. Maximum loads aren't far above the levels needed to push the bullet fully out of the barrel. Cast and swaged lead bullets work better at the standard power/pressure levels.

3) Downloading, even with lead bullets, amplifies the above issues.

4) Many modern smokeless powders (except for Trail Boss) result in poor case fill. Some of the "magnum" powders (like 2400 and IMR4227) provide decent case fill, but generally result in considerable residue and poor combustion. Even bulky "classic" powders like Herco reach only about 50% case fill at standard 45 Colt pressure levels.

The 45 Colt improves with modern brass and powders when combined with the higher pressure levels available to those who shoot Rugers, TCs, and a few other revolvers.

In my limited experience with most modern components, the 45 Colt is just getting started when used with lead bullets at top SAA load levels. And for those with stronger guns, very nice loads can be developed for both stout lead and jacketed bullets at higher pressure levels.

Bottom line (for me) is it's a fun round when used at medium power levels (and above), but I think there are much better caliber choices for powder puff and "cowboy" loads.

For all the reasons you listed above, I think that's the reason why a lot of people complain about .45 Colt accuracy not being as good as .44 Special's accuracy. The .45 Colt case is MASSIVE and trying to go for a lower recoil accuracy load results in poor results.

For those reasons, I find that .45 Schofield/S&W is the answer. The case is smaller so there's less air gap, I want to believe the brass is a bit thinner and thus requires lower pressures to expand and fit to the chamber for full obturation, but in a .45 Colt revolver the .45 S&W is still capable of shooting the 250 grain bullets.

The comparison between .44 Special and .45 Colt is not accurate because the Colt case is a full 1/8th inch longer than .44 Spl, while the .45 S&W case is 1/16th inch shorter than .44 Spl. Of course there's still the crowd that believes in the bullet jump myth and will lose their minds over the thought of shooting a case that's 3/16ths of an inch shorter, so they'll swear by the .44 forever.

So my suggestion for you is try some .45 Schofield at the SAA pressures and you will likely see a huge difference.

[BBarn]

I have considered, and am still considering, using the smaller 45 S&W cases for some of my loads.

Dimensional issues have also handicapped the 45 Colt. The case diameter is smaller relative to the cylinder/chamber diameter than most other cartridges making for a somewhat sloppy fit. That also means more than the typical expansion is required from the case to seal against the chamber/cylinder.

[Pathfinder45]

So use an appropriate powder. Unique is among the best.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Take it from me, age has nothing to do with usefulness.

Very true.

The .45 Colt is not the only example of longevity when it comes to firearms and their food. Lots of ammo, gauges and the platforms to shoot them both that have been around for as long or almost as long. Many >century old examples still doing their job as well, if not better than many of their modern day brethren.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

More like the ability to shoot common .45 Colt are keeping the .454 and .460 alive.

Spoken most likely by someone who does not shoot .454 and .460. While both of those platforms can shoot .45 Colt, those folks that actually shoot them generally don't bother. It's what the .454 and .460 can do above and beyond it's little sister is what's going to keep them alive. Kinda like sayin' the only thing that brought back the .45 Colt from obscurity was the advent of "Ruger Only" loads. While a few do it, it's not what the majority of folks do.

I'd be the first to tell folks iffin you are thinkin' about gettin' an X-Frame or a BFR in .454 just to shoot standard .45 Colt loads in....don't bother. Just a waste of time, money and a good gun.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by BBarn

I have considered, and am still considering, using the smaller 45 S&W cases for some of my loads.

Dimensional issues have also handicapped the 45 Colt. The case diameter is smaller relative to the cylinder/chamber diameter than most other cartridges making for a somewhat sloppy fit. That also means more than the typical expansion is required from the case to seal against the chamber/cylinder.

The .45 Colt is really a magnum sized cartridge and was considered as such in the 1800s when using a full black powder charge. Part of the reason why the Army made .45 S&W the standard ammo wasn't simply because of ammo commonality between the SAA and Model 3 Schofield revolvers, it was because the .45 Colt at the time had uncomfortable recoil.

Why .45 S&W ammo isn't as common as .45 Colt is odd. I know the larger rim can have issues in certain revolvers and it can't run in lever rifles due to the case length, but I guess it has more to do with people not knowing that .45 S&W/Schofield ammo can be shot in .45 Colt revolvers.

Which I find hard to believe as most people who own .45 Colt revolvers are more "in the know" about such things than the typical Joe Six Pack.

Originally Posted by Pathfinder45

So use an appropriate powder. Unique is among the best.

Yeah, Unique is my primary powder for .45 Colt and most other revolver cartridges. It just works so well in the long cases.

[USSR]

cmon where are the 45 Pictures. The few posted are really nice.

Happy to oblige.

Don

[Driftwood Johnson]

cmon where are the 45 Pictures. The few posted are really nice.

I'm your Huckleberry

The problem with this forum is you can only post six photos per post. So here are six that you all might find interesting.

My 45 Colt/45 ACP Blackhawk that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975. It only cost $150 back then, which was still a lot of money for a kid in his twenties.






The next 45 I bought, around 2000 when I first got into Cowboy Action Shooting. An 'original model' Vaquero that I bought used at that time.






A pair of Stainless 'original model' Vaqueros that were my main match pistols for a few years.






A pair of 2nd Gen Colts that are my current Main Match CAS pistols.






Another 2nd Gen that I picked up recently. This one is so pretty that I have not gotten around to shooting it yet.






Regarding my load, it is difficult to stuff the original 40 grains of FFg Black Powder into a modern solid head 45 Colt cartridge, without compressing the powder a ridiculous amount. My normal load in modern brass is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg which works out to about 33.3 grains, under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet. I chronographed these a long time ago. My loading notebook says this load averaged 800 fps out of a 7 1/2" Vaquero. That's how long ago I chorinied them, I did not own my Colts yet. Anyway, that is plenty of velocity for me.

Here is what it looks like fired from my 4 3/4" barreled Colt.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Here is something you don't see every day. Colt New Service chambered for 45 Colt. Shipped in 1906.






Did somebody say Schofields?

This 1st Model Schofield left the S&W factory in July of 1875.






Clearly, I cannot fire 45 Colts out of it, the cylinder is not long enough for the 45 Colt round. I have to fire the shorter 45 Schofield round out of it.

Here is an interesting photo. Left to right one of my 45 Colt reloads, an original copper cased, Benet Primed folded rim 45 Colt round, an original copper cased, Benet primed folded rim 45 Schofield round, and one of my 45 Schofield reloads in Starline brass with 1.9CC (about 28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg under a 200 grain Big Lube bullet.






While we are non the subject of Schofields, we might as well mention my old EuroArms 1858 Remington that I also bought back around 1975. Sorry, no idea how much it cost back then. Anyway, about ten years ago I bought an R&D conversion cylinder for it chambered for 45 Colt.









The Remington grip shape is just different enough from a Colt that I did not like shooting full house 45 Colt rounds out of it. I brought the cylinder to a friend and he opened up the counterbores for the rims ever so slightly, so the larger Schofield rims would seat. That is when I started loading 45 Schofield with Black Powder, and when I designed the J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet. Up until that time the only Big Lube bullet available for 45 caliber was the 250 grain PRS bullet. So I designed the 200 grain bullet specifically for shooting in my Remmie. It is now part of the standard line up of Big Lube bullets, but the design was tweaked a little bit from my original design.




Ooops, that's it, six photos.

[44 AMP]

Maximum loads aren't far above the levels needed to push the bullet fully out of the barrel.

Rubbish!

Unless, of course, you consider 1,000fps to be "not far above the levels needed to push the bullet out of the barrel"

because a 250gr @ 1,000fps is what you can get out of a Colt SAA with a 5.5" or longer barrel, and almost that much from the shorter 4 5/8" tube.

Sure. its a max load, but its been the listed max load for Colt guns for longer than most (possibly all) of us have been alive.

[BBarn]

If you look back, you'll see I was referring to jacketed bullets in my statement. It's based on the cautions given by Speer and Alliant not to reduce the charges of their standard pressure 250+ gr. jacketed bullet 45 Colt data.

Those cautions don't apply to their lighter jacketed bullet data. And other bullet and powder makers publish jacketed bullet standard pressure starting loads well below their maximums regardless of bullet weight. So perhaps Speer/Alliant are overly cautious.

Nearly all of the latest transducer tested data shows 250 gr. jacketed bullets from standard 45 Colt loads below 900 fps. I've seen only one or two recently published 250 gr. jacketed loads a bit above 900 fps., but none near 1000 fps.

As suggested, you can get better standard pressure performance from the 45 Colt by using swaged or cast bullets.

[Pathfinder45]

Cast bullets are generally better for large caliber revolvers anyway. A big,flat-point 45 doesn't need to expand to do its job. Jacketed bullets are over-rated for this application.

[M88]

Still useful??? of all my revolvers, my 2 45 Colt SA's are just pure FUN to shoot. Simple as that. I also have a Winchester 1892 lever, and of my lever guns THAT one is my favorite to take to the range. Don't know about "useful", but I love the 45 Colt round. It's ancient, it's simple, it "works" like it should.

Originally Posted by 44AMP

Had my years of loading the .45 Colt to match or even slightly exceed the .44 Magnum. Decided a long time ago to settle on 10gr Unique and a 250gr SWC. This goes just under 1100fps in my 7.5" Ruger and delivers plenty of "thwop" while not being uncomfortable to shoot.

I'm going to try this combo... thanks 44.

Ruger Vaquero, a "modern" 45 Colt SA...



Taylor & Co (Uberti) Smoke Wagon, Taylor tuned with a nice trigger job 45 Colt SA, internals more like the original Colts...

[44 AMP]

I'm going to try this combo... thanks 44.

10gr Unique is close to the listed max in my old manuals, so WORK UP TO IT. It should be ok in any Colt SAA class gun, but every gun is a little different, so start a bit low and work up in small steps.


Your Uberti should be considered the same as a Colt SAA for pressure levels.

Your Vaquero? Depends on which one you have. The original Vaqueros are as strong as New Model Blackhawks. Those were discontinued some years ago, and their replacement "Vaquero" is a smaller Colt SAA size gun, which should be used with Colt level loads.

If your gun says "Vaquero" on the frame, its the old one. If it says "New Vaquero" its the newer, Colt class gun.

[chaim]

Taurus made a 5 shot 45 colt snubby a decade or more back..... the size of a Charter Arms bulldog 44 spl but with better cylinder lock up.

That was the 450. I got to shoot one once. A local member of the forum had one and let me shoot one when we went to the range. It was a great shooter. The 450 was high on my want list, but I didn't have much money back then. I remember the last one I saw, a Total Titanium model at a gun show. The price was reasonable but not (based on prices at the time) terrific. I decided to wait until I could better afford it and I wanted a steel model. If I knew it would be the last one I saw, I'd have bought it.

Unfortunately, Taurus discontinued it in favor of the Judge. I'm not a fan of the Judge anyway, and I hate them since they are the cause of the demise of the 450 which I think had the makings of a near perfect carry revolver. Now, they are rare on the online auctions (and I never see them on the local used market), and when you do see them they are $700-800.

[Fjblair]

The .45LC and .45 ACP are easily my favorite center fire calibers/handguns.

[fastbolt]

I've always has an affinity for the venerable .45 Colt since my early handloading days, when I was loading from mild to wild (Ruger-Only pages of the older manuals). Although I've not been a handloader for many years, I've still got a nice stash of older handloads I put back for my Ruger Blackhawk.

The only .45 Colt I own is a Ruger Blackhawk Convertible (.45Colt/ACP cylinders) with a handy 4 5/8" barrel.

The factory loads most easily found on shelves nowadays offer 185gr or 225gr JHP's running 850-920fps, which puts the old Colt load in the neighborhood of the .45ACP for defensive bullet weight/velocities. Not too shabby.

Of course, moderately loaded 255gr LSWC offerings can still appeal to the heavy-for-caliber crowd who also like a nicely sized meplat.

I suspect this caliber will last as long as there's still revolvers being made.

[Mr.RevolverGuy]

I may have to agree fastbolt. What is this stuff about not reloading anymore?

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Mr.RevolverGuy

I may have to agree fastbolt. What is this stuff about not reloading anymore?

Reloading was something I grew up enjoying with my father for many years. Once I entered LE and was able to increasingly shoot on the agency's dime and ammo inventory, and was increasingly busy working OT and trying to raise a family, my hobby time was curtailed.

Once my father moved out-of-state and then died too young (cancer), I only had my younger brother left with whom to enjoy the hobby. (He's always remained a serious reloader.) Now that he's retired and moved out-of-state, and I no longer live where I can just wander the backwoods and enjoy plinking with my father and brother, I'm not so sure I have the interest to get back into it.

Now that I've been retired for several years, I've found that there's other things I enjoy doing and I've let the older hobby slip away. Besides, my hobby money has been increasingly invested in motorcycles, cigars (which is an expensive vice) and a renewed interest in my knife collection.

Now, if I was still in the "collecting & acquisition" phase like when I was a younger man, and hadn't focused so much on building a collection of "working" guns as a LE firearms trainer and armorer, I'd be busy collecting all manner of Ruger Blackhawks and Vaqueros.

[Driftwood Johnson]

For those reasons, I find that .45 Schofield/S&W is the answer. The case is smaller so there's less air gap, I want to believe the brass is a bit thinner and thus requires lower pressures to expand and fit to the chamber for full obturation, but in a .45 Colt revolver the .45 S&W is still capable of shooting the 250 grain bullets.

Howdy Again

Just for the fun of it I grabbed a handful of 45 Colt brass and 45 Schofield brass. They are all running the same thickness at the case mouth, right about .012 or .013.

I don't know about any other brands, but just about everything I load these days is Starline.

Regarding the case rim situation, standard rim diameter for 45 Colt is .512, standard rim diameter for 45 Schofield is .520. The only revolver that ever gave me trouble seating the larger rims of the Schofield rounds was an 'original model' Vaquero. As you can see in this photo, the area of the ratchet teeth on the Vaquero cylinder on the left has less clearance around the rims than the scallop shaped ratchet teeth of the Colt cylinder on the right. With that particular revolver, there was not quite clearance at one chamber only for the larger Schofield rims to seat all the way. About ten minutes with a file took care of the problem.






I don't think I have ever loaded 45 Schofield with Smokeless powder, I have only ever loaded it with Black Powder.

Here is an interesting photo. On the far left is one of my 45 Colt rounds, on the right is one of my 45 Schofield rounds. The 45 Colt round holds about 35 grains of Schuetzen FFg powder under the 250 grain bullet. (Modern solid head cases do not have as much case capacity as the old Balloon Head brass.) The Schofield round has about 28.5 grains of FFg Schuetzen under the 200 grain bullet. That 45 Colt round will do about 700 fps out of a 7 1/2" revolver barrel. Sorry, I have no velocity information for the Schofield round. The two funny copper cased rounds in the center of the photo are the original Benet primed, folded rim versions of these cartridges, 45 Colt on the left and 45 Schofield on the right. The odd crimps near the base hold the inside primed anvil plate in place.

Regarding why is 45 Schofield not as easily available as 45 Colt? I suspect it is simply lack of demand.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Driftwood Johnson

Howdy Again

Just for the fun of it I grabbed a handful of 45 Colt brass and 45 Schofield brass. They are all running the same thickness at the case mouth, right about .012 or .013.

I don't know about any other brands, but just about everything I load these days is Starline.

Same with me, I only use Starline for .45 Schofield. I was just under the assumption that the brass may be thinner as that usually seems to be the case with shorter cases. When I get around to it, I'll check both .45 S&W and .45 Colt Starline brass I have. Given that I use high quality micrometers and other metrology equipment at work, I may find a noticeable difference. Will update if I do.

Regarding why is 45 Schofield not as easily available as 45 Colt? I suspect it is simply lack of demand.

For which reasons we can only guess. All I can say is people who dis the .45 Colt's accuracy vs .44 Special are likely correct, but that doesn't mean the .45 revolver is inaccurate and they should try several loads in .45 Schofield instead before they pass judgement.

The .45 Colt is larger than .44 Magnum, but operates at max pressures almost 1/3rd that of .44 Mag, so low the max pressure is actually less than that of .44 Special.

[Ruger45LC]

Absolutely it is, it's probably my all time favorite cartridge. I love the versatility of it, you can go from powder puff cowboy rounds to moose/elk/big bear medicine with the same cartridge. I've had my share of the them, currently my only revolver is a 454 BFR Bisley, but it lives its life mostly as a 5 shot .45 Colt.