Armed Citizen Stops Mass Shooting in Oklahoma City - Page 2

**Aguila Blanca** · May 28, 2018, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

It would be interesting to see what percentage of mass shooters (who aren't stopped at the initial shooting location) leave the scene of the initial shooting and then continue shooting at another location.

The Virginia Tech shooter killed one (or two?) people on one part of the campus before going to Norris Hall, which is where he killed most of his total body count.

The shooter at the New Life Church in Colorado first killed two and wounded two at the Youth with a Mission camp/center in Arvada before going to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where he killed two and wounded three before being stopped by Jeanne Assam, a former police officer who was a security team volunteer.

I believe the theory on the Sutherland Springs church shooting is that the shooter went to the church with the intention of killing his estranged wife's family. They didn't attend services that Sunday, so there's a good degree of probability that he would have gone hunting if the good guy across the street hadn't stopped him.

The Sandy Hook shooter started by killing his mother at home before he went to the school.

I'm sure there are other examples.

MTT TL · May 28, 2018, 05:11 PM

The Tyler Court House shooter drove all over town exchanging fire with the police.

The Millers went to CiCi's pizza first and then got mowed down in Walmart.

The terrorists in San Bernandino left and were riding around when the police found them, they had no end game so it is likely they were looking for a fresh target.

The Chattanooga shooter hit two places till he was killed.

That is just off the top of my head. So yeah it happens a lot. This guy died the typical cowards death after shooting innocent women and kids.

In 2014-15, 28% of active shooters who were stopped by others were stopped by private citizens. Those numbers seem to be on the rise.

**JohnKSa** · May 28, 2018, 06:22 PM

Quote:

The terrorists in San Bernandino left and were riding around when the police found them, they had no end game so it is likely they were looking for a fresh target.

It is POSSIBLE that they were but since they never did, it wouldn't make sense to use them as evidence of mass shooters who intended to hit a second location unless we are willing to accept speculation as evidence.

Quote:

The Millers went to CiCi's pizza first and then got mowed down in Walmart.

This is a situation (along with the VA Tech shootings, the CO springs church shooting and the Chattanooga shootings) where mass shootings were continued at a second location.

Quote:

The Tyler Court House shooter drove all over town exchanging fire with the police.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

The Tyler Courthouse shooter fled the scene, was pursued by police and exchanged fire with them when they got close--that is not remotely the same thing as going to a second location to continue a mass shooting. His obvious targets were his wife and son who were shot at the courthouse. If there's one mass shooting we know was only aimed at specific targets at a single location, this one is it. There is absolutely nothing to suggest he had other targets or another location in mind--everything points to his having only a single objective.

We get too far ahead of ourselves when we not only make claims based on speculation (he might have been going to continue the shooting at a second location) but also use further speculation as evidence (e.g. the San Bernadino shooters might have been going to a second location too) and even try to use situations (like the Tyler shooting) which are not at all relevant.

The evidence is on our side. We don't have to base our arguments on speculation or on trying to spin the facts.

WyMark · July 13, 2018, 05:07 PM

Here is an interesting article about this incident and other "Good Samaritan" encounters. Things could easily have turned out much worse than they did.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.aaae9fe36c21

These guys got pretty lucky, and it sounds like they know it.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 13, 2018, 06:24 PM

Hmmm ... phrasing?

Quote:

“We don’t want people to be vigilantes,” Bo Mathews, a spokesman for the Oklahoma City Police Department, said in a recent interview. “That’s why we have police officers.”

We have police officers to be vigilantes? That's what he just said.

Double Naught Spy · July 13, 2018, 07:10 PM

Last I checked, self defense and defense of others is not considered vigilantism. Vigilantism implies a breaking of the law by bypassing the legal process. You would think Bo Mathews would know the difference.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 13, 2018, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNS

Last I checked, self defense and defense of others is not considered vigilantism. Vigilantism implies a breaking of the law by bypassing the legal process. You would think Bo Mathews would know the difference.

No, I wouldn't think Bo Matthews would know the difference. He's a police officer. Police officers today are taught that the citizens (whom they are supposed "to protect and serve") are the enemy.

**44 AMP** · July 13, 2018, 09:52 PM

Well, one can assume the shooter was on his way to a new spot with fresh targets, or you can assume the shooter was done, and was on his way home for that cold beer...doesn't matter either way.

One thing you can say with accuracy is that the shooter was stopped from shooting anyone else, again, ever.

As to those who somehow think the responding citizens "failed" because they didn't stop a mass shooting before it happened, I find that totally unrealistic.

One cannot stop a mass shooting, ever. No citizen, and no police can do it. Because its a trick of language.

MTT TL · July 15, 2018, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Police officers today are taught that the citizens (whom they are supposed "to protect and serve") are the enemy.

Well aren't you the learned one. I'd like a reference for that note so I can be educated as well.

**JohnKSa** · July 16, 2018, 01:11 AM

When it comes to LE's relationship with the communities that they serve, I think it's fair to say that there's more of an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides than is ideal.

That said, I think it's more than just a slight overstatement to say that LEOs are actually taught that regular citizens are their enemies.

MTT TL · July 16, 2018, 10:51 PM

When men go armed on the streets against whom are they arming themselves? The answer may be the same for everyone.

May 28, 2018, 05:11 PM	#27
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	The Tyler Court House shooter drove all over town exchanging fire with the police. The Millers went to CiCi's pizza first and then got mowed down in Walmart. The terrorists in San Bernandino left and were riding around when the police found them, they had no end game so it is likely they were looking for a fresh target. The Chattanooga shooter hit two places till he was killed. That is just off the top of my head. So yeah it happens a lot. This guy died the typical cowards death after shooting innocent women and kids. In 2014-15, 28% of active shooters who were stopped by others were stopped by private citizens. Those numbers seem to be on the rise. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

July 13, 2018, 07:10 PM	#31
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Last I checked, self defense and defense of others is not considered vigilantism. Vigilantism implies a breaking of the law by bypassing the legal process. You would think Bo Mathews would know the difference. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

July 13, 2018, 09:52 PM	#33
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,821	Well, one can assume the shooter was on his way to a new spot with fresh targets, or you can assume the shooter was done, and was on his way home for that cold beer...doesn't matter either way. One thing you can say with accuracy is that the shooter was stopped from shooting anyone else, again, ever. As to those who somehow think the responding citizens "failed" because they didn't stop a mass shooting before it happened, I find that totally unrealistic. One cannot stop a mass shooting, ever. No citizen, and no police can do it. Because its a trick of language. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 16, 2018, 01:11 AM	#35
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,975	When it comes to LE's relationship with the communities that they serve, I think it's fair to say that there's more of an "us vs. them" mentality on both sides than is ideal. That said, I think it's more than just a slight overstatement to say that LEOs are actually taught that regular citizens are their enemies. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

July 16, 2018, 10:51 PM	#36
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	When men go armed on the streets against whom are they arming themselves? The answer may be the same for everyone. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

July 13, 2018, 05:07 PM	#29
WyMark Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 647	Here is an interesting article about this incident and other "Good Samaritan" encounters. Things could easily have turned out much worse than they did. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.aaae9fe36c21 These guys got pretty lucky, and it sounds like they know it.