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May 5, 2017, 04:14 PM | #26 | |
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I've shot enough targets to 600 and beyond to know that combo is indeed accurate. In fact the I carried a M700 w/1:12 as a counter-sniper rifle and used M193 Ball in my duties. That rifle was extremely accurate. The tumbling theory comes from the light high velocity bullet being easy to upset and does SOMETIMES start tumbling. Thought the M193 is somewhat accurate, its light, it does not have a lot of energy or penetration at distance and is easier to be deflected by wind. That is why the Army went to the 'A2, which has a 1:7 twist. It allows for heavier bullets which penetrate better and are less effected by wind. I hope not to confuse anyone when I refer to heavier bullets needing a faster twist. Its not the weight of the bullet that determines twist requirements but the length of the bullet.
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May 5, 2017, 04:46 PM | #27 | |
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Suffice it to say, you'd need a twist like a machine screw to stabilize a .223 bullet in flesh, so 1:7 doesn't give up anything over 1:14. If you want the longer explanation, this PDF explains why the whole basic concept underlying that argument is wrong: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519801.pdf |
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May 5, 2017, 05:09 PM | #28 | |||
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kraigwy beat me to it!..
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The 55gr FMJ (M193 ball) was entirely adequately stabilized, and the M16A1 used the same 1-12 twist so no "correction" happened there (nor was one needed). The tumbling so touted for the 5.56mm round in Viet Nam is an overblown myth with a kernel of truth buried inside. The truth is that EVERY bullet longer than it is wide will yaw, (and eventually tumble if it has enough penetration) when traveling through a target medium. The effect is most pronounced with Spitzer type bullets (the center of gravity is well toward the rear of the bullet) and the faster the bullet is moving, and the lighter it is affects the distance needed to travel though the target before tumbling. The standard 150gr spitzer used in 7.62x51 NATO will tumble however, due to its size & speed, it usually doesn't show this tumble effect inside a body. In other words the bullet has (usually) passed through the enemy before it tumbles. The small light faster .22 cal bullet tumbles sooner, often while within the body of the enemy. In other words, fewer inches of tissue deflect it more. The part about the rifling twist rate causing the .22 bullet to be unstable and tumble in order to create greater wounds is complete BS. As to "lethality" of rounds in war, based on kills vs rounds fired, it may be a useful thing when considering the entire mass of ammo used, but for comparing the performance of specific individual rounds against each other, its a red herring. Quote:
Consider where those numbers come from, and how things differed in various wars. Some of these factors will also explain why just using the killed/shots fired data is insufficient. WW I, .30-06, bolt action rifle 5rnd capacity. WWII, same round, same rifles, plus the 8 shot semi auto M1 Garand different tactics, with a big change about halfway through WWII. You'll get different numbers kill/shots fired from both wars, using the SAME round. Why? One factor is the larger capacity of the semi making it easier to fire more rounds. ANOTHER factor is that pre WWII doctrine was that riflemen fired when they had a target, suppressive fire was the province of the machine guns. About halfway through the war, combat experience and the veterans to teach it changed that. Riflemen were taught to put a round or two into anything that might conceal an enemy. That change right there is enough to radically skew analysis of both an individual rounds effectiveness and the troops marksmanship based on enemy killed /rounds fired. Move up to more recent times with the M16 and you have 20rnd capacity, full auto, and light recoil, in the hands of every rifleman & other troopers. Its a rare GI who doesn't use full auto if its available. Simply put, GIs fired more ammo per kill in Viet Nam than WWII because they could. Move up to 30rnd sticks, and the same rifle, and that's a huge increase in rounds available to be fired, and so more will be used "per kill". The guy with only one shot (at a time) tries hard to make it count. The guy with a full auto tries to make each burst count. Which one do you think uses more rounds per kill??
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May 5, 2017, 07:35 PM | #29 |
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FWIW twist vs. stability: I have a 1:14 upper, specifically for coyotes. I regularly see one MOA with 55-grain flat-base soft-points.
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May 5, 2017, 09:56 PM | #30 |
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You mean like a .222 Magnum?
Predates the .223, probably a better round but does not fit the AR. 14 twist was plenty for 55 gr flatbase spitzer or 52 gr boat tail. |
May 5, 2017, 11:12 PM | #31 |
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I find it telling, people make excuses for the 5.56's effectiveness, while the most cited complaint of 7.62 is weight and capacity.
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May 5, 2017, 11:32 PM | #32 |
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We are civilians. How many rifle gun fights are we going to get into? Even then, how many rounds are we going to shoot? I figure that a gun in 7.62x51mm is going to be more than enough. Now Magpul offers 25 round magazines!
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May 6, 2017, 12:04 AM | #33 | |
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Hydrostatic shock, that will get you much quicker, if it occurs.
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May 6, 2017, 07:58 AM | #34 | |
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US Army Colonel and medical Dr. Martin Fackler, treated combat gunshot wounds. Dr. Fackler also conducted tests on military ammunition. Wounds produced at velocities in excess of about 2,750 fps prove the M193 5.56mm bullet to be devastating. Conversely, the US Army 7.62mm M80 ball ammunition is not as effective. The German 7.62mm NATO ball round is much better. http://kjg-munition.de/Zielwirkung/m..._patterns.html Last edited by thallub; May 6, 2017 at 08:10 AM. |
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May 6, 2017, 12:50 PM | #35 | |
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May 6, 2017, 02:10 PM | #36 |
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I just want to point put that US service rifles circa WWI through WWII were chambered for .30-06 but the rounds used have differences depending on their being .30 M1906, .30 M1, or .30 M2 ammunition.
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May 6, 2017, 08:57 PM | #37 |
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When 'Spray-n-Pray' was the official doctrine (Vietnam) and the tall aperture sight was used so the M-16 so full-auto fire could be used, then the 5.56 made sense.
BUT, now days with excellent combat optics and the doctrine of aimed fire being prevalent (and more practice time given the grunts) then something close to the 7.62x51 makes sense. I'm hoping a 6.5 to 7mm based on the AR being used. Doubt we will go all the way back to the 7.62x51 though. Personally I've always wanted a FN-FAL Para 7.62x51! Deaf
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May 7, 2017, 10:12 AM | #38 | ||
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We carried everything we had in the bush for months at a time, getting re-supplied about once a week. Weight as critical, every pound you could save met we could carry more ammo and just if not more important, canteens. That's why I call BS, (as unrelated) when people discuss the "rounds expended vs. bandits hit", what wins firefights is "violence of actions" and that is more critical when you cant even she who you're shooting at. Now as to this part: Quote:
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May 7, 2017, 11:00 AM | #39 | |
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May 7, 2017, 11:15 AM | #40 | |
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IF the statement refers to the sights being "tall" because they are on the carry handle (and tall front sight base to match) that was a design feature, necessary NOT because of the placement of the gas system (the AK's gas system is on top of the barrel as well), but because of the straight line stock used. The straight line stock DOES aid in managing the recoil from full auto fire. But it is not a necessity to use a straight line stock to use full auto fire. When you do use a straight line stock, you must mount the sights high enough the shooter can get his eye behind them to use them. That's why the M16 has raised sights.
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May 7, 2017, 02:00 PM | #41 |
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Many actions in Vietnam-like Korea-took place at night which greatly reduced the effectiveness of aimed fire.
And for every Carlos Hathcock and Adelbert Waldron there is someone like the member of my squad in BCT-Fort Dix, C-4-2, Summer of 1967. Company Commander: "How come you only fired 31 at Record Fire ?!" Recruit (wears glasses): "I couldn't see the targets, Sir!" Company Commander: "Why not ?!" Recruit: "I had a cold, Sir!" |
May 7, 2017, 02:58 PM | #42 |
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Actually, it all went to hell when we went from the .45-70 to a .30 caliber. That's a .15 difference in bore size vs .08 between the .22 and the .30. You can't kill a man with a puny .30 and the magazine just wastes ammo. That last sentence had actually been said historically.
The above is sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell. In my not so humble opinion, the M4/M16 is the finest service rifle currently fielded by a legitimate military. It the combined qualities of versatility, ruggedness, accuracy, and swiftness that's hard to beat. Last edited by BlackLabsMatter; May 7, 2017 at 03:13 PM. |
May 7, 2017, 03:00 PM | #43 |
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In Cuba in 1898 nobody complained about the stopping power or accuracy of the 45-70, it was that big cloud of white smoke.....
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May 8, 2017, 06:32 AM | #44 |
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"We are civilians. How many rifle gun fights are we going to get into?"
In a previous life, I was in quite a few. I suggested that the 7.62x51 was superior but several didn't seem to think so. My question is how many 7.62x51 rounds have each of you personally watched impact a walking talking target? |
May 8, 2017, 06:54 AM | #45 |
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I carried an M14 in Vietnam.
All I can say is that I came home and some folks did not get to go home. I am still rather fond of that rifle. I sometimes think that I would like to have one but I would want it just like the government issue of 1968/69. Hell, I might sleep with it just as I did that rifle...but my wife might object. |
May 8, 2017, 07:06 AM | #46 |
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Mobuck--I don't think anyone is denying the inherent superiority of the 7.62 in terms of energy delivered; especially at medium/longer ranges--I think what is being contested is the notion that a NATO 5.56, used as intended at relatively closer ranges, is not an adequate round. It also offers quick deployment/acquisition and follow-up advantages.
Of course, I have "0" experience with engaging living targets with either caliber--so I could be wrong.
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May 8, 2017, 10:15 AM | #47 |
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Boy. the bullscheisse is being slung.
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May 8, 2017, 10:36 AM | #48 | |
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Shoots better than I do.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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May 8, 2017, 10:54 AM | #49 | |
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May 8, 2017, 05:51 PM | #50 |
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I'm not saying the 5.56 is "inadequate" but it does have it's limitations.
I also refer to this in the context of hunting as in : yes, it will do certain things BUT there are many better choices. The M-16 was intended (so I'm told) to provide short range, high volume fire of a more controllable nature than the M-14. I saw very few M-14's used full auto(don't remember ever doing so personally) as the line troops were already issued the M-16 and the M-14's we used weren't really intended as fire support weapons. The M-14 was the "short range" (under 500 yards) weapon while the bolt rifle started there and reached on out if that's what it took. Simply making a first round hit with a 5.56 at guestimated ranges and variable wind conditions would be problematic never mind the questionable effect at those ranges. Remember that back then, the 7.62x51 was already a force to be reckoned with on the target range and was rapidly displacing the venerable 30/06 in many long range circles. |
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