Need reminding of legal face-to-face sale.

dahermit · April 25, 2018, 08:27 AM

I am about to offer my Winchester M1 Carbine for sale with all my related accoterments (I am old, converting possessions to cash) in lower South Central Michigan, near the Ohio, Indiana border. I know that I can do a legal face-to-face with a Michigan resident, but considering my location there will likely be Ohio and/or Indiana or even Illinois residents interested. Can I sell my Carbine (and accoterments) to non-Michigan residents in a face-to-face? I used to know this, but have forgotten.

Areoflyer09 · April 25, 2018, 08:59 AM

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...aspdf/download

Per #2 in the link, it needs to go through an FFL if the buyer is out of state.

stephen426 · April 25, 2018, 09:30 AM

For your safety, I would recommend that you go to a range or gun store that can handle the can handle the transfer for you as well. Too many crazy stories of bad Craig's List sales gone bad.

dahermit · April 25, 2018, 09:41 AM

Quote:

For your safety, I would recommend that you go to a range or gun store that can handle the can handle the transfer for you as well. Too many crazy stores of bad Craig's List sales gone bad.

I had planed on discussing the transfer with the local constables (to see if I could do it there) and conducting the excange out in their parking lot to discourage any would-be shananagans.

stephen426 · April 25, 2018, 09:51 AM

Do NOT ever bring a gun into government buildings. It is illegal in most locations unless they are doing some kind of buy back. If the police officers say it is okay, then by all means. Somehow I don't believe that will be the case. If you are going through a FFL, they will handle all of the transfer paperwork for you. if you decide to sell to a resident through a private sale, you need to make sure you write out some kind of transfer receipt to cover your butt in case the buyer does something crazy.

dahermit · April 25, 2018, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Do NOT ever bring a gun into government buildings. It is illegal in most locations unless they are doing some kind of buy back. If the police officers say it is okay, then by all means. Somehow I don't believe that will be the case. If you are going through a FFL, they will handle all of the transfer paperwork for you. if you decide to sell to a resident through a private sale, you need to make sure you write out some kind of transfer receipt to cover your butt in case the buyer does something crazy.

Quote:

"Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy."

Outside, in the parking lot of the local village police is where I intended upon doing it...with the police permission. I have no interest in paying an FFL to log a gun when I have the legal right to sell it myself (to a resident).

riffraff · April 25, 2018, 10:38 AM

I dont live in your state but federal law face to face residents same state you can sell it without the ffl, provided as far as you know they are legally allowed to own it. Usually the bare minimum in the lack of state laws is to check divers license and a bill with their name showing the same address. An LTC of course is even more assuring. Personally i would ask the person if they were prohibited by law, not that they couldnt lie but no harm in it.

Personally i would either sell it through an FFL or i would keep and provide no record in my state. The reason for this is say the guy was a felon, got caught with it or the gun was used in a crime, and the authorities followed up about it - no benefit to having it documented as for all they can prove without you telling them you couldve sold it to a legal owner who then resold it. Not saying its a fed crime to unknowingly sell a gun to a prohibited person but the could insinuate you knew, so no sense documenting it IMHO... or at least if i documented the sale i would not provide that to authorities before talking to a lawyer in such event.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 25, 2018, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riffraff

I dont live in your state but federal law face to face residents same state you can sell it without the ffl, provided as far as you know they are legally allowed to own it.

That's basically correct, but I believe it sort of puts a backwards emphasis on what the law actually says. IIRC, the law doesn't say "as long as you know they are legally allowed to own [a firearm]." Worded like that, it could be interpreted to mean that the seller has an affirmative duty to verify that the buyer is not a prohibited person.

My recollection is that the law is written the other way: You can make the sale unless you have reason to believe that the buyer is a prohibited person. That puts a different slant on it, because it's not a written requirement that the seller do anything except hand over the gun and pocket the cash.

dogtown tom · April 25, 2018, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Aguila Blanca .... You can make then sale unless you have reason to believe that the buyer is a prohibited person. That puts a different slant on it, because it's not a written requirement that the seller do anything except hand over the gun and pocket the cash.

This.

**Spats McGee** · April 26, 2018, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

I am about to offer my Winchester M1 Carbine for sale with all my related accoterments (I am old, converting possessions to cash) in lower South Central Michigan, near the Ohio, Indiana border. I know that I can do a legal face-to-face with a Michigan resident, but considering my location there will likely be Ohio and/or Indiana or even Illinois residents interested. Can I sell my Carbine (and accoterments) to non-Michigan residents in a face-to-face? I used to know this, but have forgotten.

Answering the bolded question: no. You may not, at least not without going through an FFL. Any time a firearm is transferred across state lines, an FFL must be involved. The particulars vary, but that's the basic federal rule.

I don't have any idea what the various state laws of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois say about it, but as federal law prohibits interstate transfers without an FFL, it doesn't much matter.

Pahoo · April 26, 2018, 10:08 AM

I live in a state that borders Illinois and attend a number of their GS's. You would not believe the number of disgruntled non-residents, when an Illinois dealer will not sell directly to them. Dealers want to make sales but am pleased to witness, legal transaction regardless of how inconvenient it "might" for the customer. .....

Be Safe !!!!

**Aguila Blanca** · April 26, 2018, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pahoo

I live in a state that borders Illinois and attend a number of their GS's. You would not believe the number of disgruntled non-residents, when an Illinois dealer will not sell directly to them. Dealers want to make sales but am pleased to witness, legal transaction regardless of how inconvenient it "might" for the customer.

I wonder if any of the disgruntled would-be buyers are actually liberal plants, who are disgruntled because they were hoping to prove the popular lie about how easy it is for anyone to buy a "killing machine" with no background check -- and then they found out that there ARE laws, and that said laws are generally followed.

As an aside ... If someone who is unhappy about something is disgruntled, does that mean a happy camper is gruntled?

Pahoo · April 26, 2018, 10:55 AM

Quote:

I wonder if any of the disgruntled would-be buyers are actually liberal plants

Of the dealers that I know, many are always aware of this possibility and not concerned because it's easy for them to follow the law. They are also aware that some dealers have fallen and yes, deserve it. ......

As an aside ... Why is a Black Raspberry, Red when it's Green? .....

Be Safe !!!

April 25, 2018, 08:27 AM	#1
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Need reminding of legal face-to-face sale. I am about to offer my Winchester M1 Carbine for sale with all my related accoterments (I am old, converting possessions to cash) in lower South Central Michigan, near the Ohio, Indiana border. I know that I can do a legal face-to-face with a Michigan resident, but considering my location there will likely be Ohio and/or Indiana or even Illinois residents interested. *Can I sell my Carbine (and accoterments) to non-Michigan residents in a face-to-face?* I used to know this, but have forgotten.

April 25, 2018, 09:30 AM	#3
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	For your safety, I would recommend that you go to a range or gun store that can handle the can handle the transfer for you as well. Too many crazy stories of bad Craig's List sales gone bad. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! Last edited by stephen426; April 25, 2018 at 09:51 AM.

April 25, 2018, 09:51 AM	#5
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Do NOT ever bring a gun into government buildings. It is illegal in most locations unless they are doing some kind of buy back. If the police officers say it is okay, then by all means. Somehow I don't believe that will be the case. If you are going through a FFL, they will handle all of the transfer paperwork for you. if you decide to sell to a resident through a private sale, you need to make sure you write out some kind of transfer receipt to cover your butt in case the buyer does something crazy. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

April 26, 2018, 10:08 AM	#11
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	When in doubt, use an FFL I live in a state that borders Illinois and attend a number of their GS's. You would not believe the number of disgruntled non-residents, when an Illinois dealer will not sell directly to them. Dealers want to make sales but am pleased to witness, legal transaction regardless of how inconvenient it "might" for the customer. ..... Be Safe !!!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

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April 25, 2018, 08:59 AM	#2
Areoflyer09 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2017 Posts: 300	https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...aspdf/download Per #2 in the link, it needs to go through an FFL if the buyer is out of state.

April 25, 2018, 10:38 AM	#7
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	I dont live in your state but federal law face to face residents same state you can sell it without the ffl, provided as far as you know they are legally allowed to own it. Usually the bare minimum in the lack of state laws is to check divers license and a bill with their name showing the same address. An LTC of course is even more assuring. Personally i would ask the person if they were prohibited by law, not that they couldnt lie but no harm in it. Personally i would either sell it through an FFL or i would keep and provide no record in my state. The reason for this is say the guy was a felon, got caught with it or the gun was used in a crime, and the authorities followed up about it - no benefit to having it documented as for all they can prove without you telling them you couldve sold it to a legal owner who then resold it. Not saying its a fed crime to unknowingly sell a gun to a prohibited person but the could insinuate you knew, so no sense documenting it IMHO... or at least if i documented the sale i would not provide that to authorities before talking to a lawyer in such event.