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Old December 25, 2022, 11:21 PM   #26
Savvy_Jack
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First we need to throw this "ethical" mess out the window. We try and do our part by being "as ethical as we can" by not allowing the animal to suffer any longer than they need to, but in the real world, most deer are not shot in the heart/lungs or in the brain/(spinal) and can suffer for 30 minutes to an hour or so, or even longer, for worst shot placements.

In 2017 I killed a little eight point at 65 yards, he never took a step, dropped straight down. The shot hit high shoulder, somehow turned 90 degrees and traveled down the spinal cord and lodged in the hind quarter....A lot of blood from the mouth/nose on ground, bleeding to death and "died" in just a few minutes.

Earlier this year I completely messed up a shot placement with a very high "gut shot" that I failed to find. Dark blood was a sign of actually missing the gut but the video clearly showed a high aft hit near the spine and temporary hind quarter paralysis for a few minutes, then ran off because I could'n see that he rolled/skidded down the hill...and bedded down 100 yards away....tracked too early and he ran off. The next morning he blew at me and ran off to never be seen again.

Yesterday I shot a spike at 30-40 yards with a hit high double lung, passed straight through. Deer ran 120 yards and fell dead. Probably hemorrhagic shock and died from insufficient circulation to oxygenate the organs. A lot of blood from the mouth/nose on ground...once I decided to track and find.

There is no "magic formula" to killing a deer but shot placement is certainly key...and contrary to popular belief, most people can't hit the backside of a barn if not seated at a shooting bench...to include myself!

HEART SHOT
When we hit the heart, then the heart sac (what covers the heart, referred to as pericardium), which has a nerve innervation, will cause the deer to do a bronco kick. This is when the animal kicks both hind legs and then jumps completely off the ground before running off.

LUNG SHOT
If both lungs are hit, the animal might react like it wasn’t even hit. The animal dies from ventilation insufficiency (double lung) or from circulatory insufficiency (single lung).

It will take 10 to 12 seconds for an animal with a heart shot or double lung shot to bleed out. Therefore, if the animal runs for 20 seconds at 35 miles per hour then the animal can run for 300 yards.

Last edited by Savvy_Jack; December 27, 2022 at 10:47 AM.
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Old December 26, 2022, 04:23 AM   #27
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Quote:
First we need to throw this "ethical" mess out the window. We try and do our part by being "as ethical as we can" by not allowing the animal to suffer any longer than they need to, but in the real world, most deer are not shot in the heart/lungs or in the brain/(spinal) and can suffer for 30 minutes to an hour or so, or even longer, for worst shot placements.
Different strokes for different folks,I guess. Long ago ,as a teen,I read and re-read Robert Ruark ,starting with "The Old Man and the Boy" Ruark had a way of working ethic into his chapters.
I won't throw "ethic out the window". Ethic is what you do when you figure no one is looking. For myself, that guy I see in the mirror is always looking and I have to live up to his standard if I want to respect myself.

If I really believe the vast majority of hunters shoot the game into doll rags and still the animal suffers for half an hour.....I refuse to place myself among them.(I HAVE witnessed poor kills)

One favor I've done for the late private rancher who owned the land I've done most of my hunting on is prairie dog control. There is no bench rest. I do not consider a good hit on a 250 yard prairie dog to be remarkable. Its more like routine. And its not a once a year thing. At any range I can splat a prairie dog, I can make a good heart/lung shot. Many PD shooters know what I'm talking about .

I know how to use my duplex to get a quick estimate of range. Its a takeoff of the mil-dot principle. (YMMV. My duplex measures 2 mils post to post, Fixed 6X. Its no laser,just a guideline) Brisket to whithers fitting post to center crosshair is close enough to 400 yds I start thinking "Get closer" Tip of the lower post is an aiming point for 430 yds.(on this ranch,as a guideline) I zero this rifle dead on at 300 yds.

If my family had no meat unless I killed something, I ,might stretch a bit.

But thats not my reality. I have several grocery stores where I can buy meat. And its not like hunting saves me money. A hunt costs money.

My sense of ethic is connected to my trigger finger. If I'm a little too wobbly,
or if its a little too far, or a bit too windy.... I'm OK with NOT pulling the trigger. I'm OK with going home without filling my tag.

I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about my unfilled tag. I care about what the guy in the mirror thinks.

I'm not OK with a sloppy kill on my part. I never want to be.

I will not claim I have never made one. One mess I made caused me to quit hunting a few years. I don't want to feel that way again.

I started out as a teen with a 7mm Rem Mag and I was using a max book load of H-4831 behind a Sierra 160 gr boat tail. It was a zippy load and that Sierra was a violent bullet. I like to eat what I shoot so I downsized to the 257 AI. In my experience, if that 115 gr Ballistic Tip launched at just over 3000 fps makes it inside the ribcage, I pour out heart/lung soup chunks in blood broth. I won't claim every animal was dropped in its tracks, but they were dead and just did not know it yet.

Last edited by HiBC; December 28, 2022 at 07:04 AM.
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Old December 26, 2022, 10:49 AM   #28
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savvy_Jack View Post
First we need to throw this "ethical" mess out the window. We try and do our part by being "as ethical as we can" by not allowing the animal to suffer any longer than they need to, but in the real world, most deer are not shot in the heart/lungs or in the brain/(spinal) and can suffer for 30 minutes to an hour or so, or even longer, for worst shot placements.
I hafta disagree. I've been bowhunting since 1966. Know a lot of bowhunters. Skill levels and technology of equipment has made for incredible accuracy. While there will always be a fair amount of "poor" hits, I'm gonna say that 80% are probably "Boiler room" hits. This is with archery equipment. Last several years, during the regular gun season, the majority of shots I hear are single. Those days of folks emptying their magazine at a running deer are almost gone around here. Very few folks "drive" deer anymore so running shots are much less than they used to be.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Savvy_Jack View Post
There is no "magic formula" to killing a deer but shot placement is certainly key...and contrary to popular belief, most people can't hit the backside of a barn if not seated at a shooting bench...to include myself!
Again, modern equipment has made for very accurate weapons for deer. I have watched my grand-daughters take deer, all with one shot, all without the use of a bench. One took her first buck this year at the age of 12. It isn't really that difficult. When I first started to hunt deer with a gun back in the mid 60s, folks hunted with whatever they had. Many were single shot shotguns with the old "rifled" slugs. Many were mil-surp rifles with poor ammo and even poorer accuracy. Nowadays, shotguns with rifled barrels using sabots are just as accurate out to 150 yards as most rifles. Even "entry" level new guns can shoot to MOA, right out of the box. Again, not that difficult. No excuse for not being able to hit the broadside of a barn without a bench rest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Savvy_Jack View Post
It will take 10 to 12 seconds for an animal with a heart shot or double lung shot to bleed out. Therefore, if the animal runs for 20 seconds at 35 miles per hour then the animal can run for 300 yards.
This I agree with. Biggest difference I see with modern hunters is their inability to trail a wounded deer. Many, if the deer does not drop in it's tracks, or within sight, don't even go look for blood. Those that do find blood and have to trail it in less than ideal conditions do not recognize when the deer has backtracked or jumped the trail. Most don't even pay attention to what side is bleeding or how the blood is exiting the body. If they cant see footprints easily they don't even know which direction the deer is going. Never have seen a Heart shot or double lunged deer go 300 yards. Never saw one go more than 100 yards, even downhill. Have helped bloodtrail deer for miles when the shooter claimed they had "nicked" the lungs, only to find both lungs completely intact when the deer was recovered. Deer do not have to completely "bleed out" before they become confused and or unable to stand. I have never had to trail an archery hit deer, that was heart shot/double lunged more than 40 yards....ever.

JMTCs.
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Old December 26, 2022, 05:22 PM   #29
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Good stuff in posts #27 and #28.
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Old December 27, 2022, 08:10 PM   #30
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I'm not a hunter and gives me the insights I needed. "Really ?"....Good

Quote:
Thank you all, great info. First shot drops them in their tracks. This was needed info since I'm not a hunter and gives me the insights I needed.
Dan,
Ever since you started this thread, I've been trying to figure out, your point of departures where are you coming from and just what information you are really looking for. So, you finally state that your definition of a one-shot kill, is if they drop in their tracks, with one shot. There are just to many variable to guantee this but as a hunter, I do my best to limit any suffering. The only way, I could meet your standard, is to walk up to a deer, gently put my arm around him and put the muzzle, in his ear. However, even that doesn't guarantee a one-shot kill. To date, my shortest kill, I can claim, was a shot that cut the bottom half of a buck's heart. He took "two" steps and dropped. As usual, I gave thanks and proceeded to dress him out. ....

Be Safe !!!
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Old January 30, 2023, 03:18 AM   #31
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If I can one tap it and it just drops and I'm fine with a head shot it does keep me from giving chase for another hundred yards or more which to me add that into the possible mile or more I have to pack it out. As far as waiting for the right moment, I have infinite patience and if happens it happens. The area to which I found is fairly flat and the herd is smaller but from what I saw last year...Lets just say this spot is about a 3 hour drive to the middle of nowhere and can get weather extremes, so based on hunting season I'd rather not be out there when a sudden snowstorm hits like last year and the acceptable 38 degrees turned to 10 degrees.

Mods: Sorry life gets in the way sometimes and didn't have time to reply.
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Old January 30, 2023, 09:22 AM   #32
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Over the decades, I’ve killed a lot of deer (hundreds). Going back into memory, I don’t remember needing more than one shot, until this year. Normally I’ll shoot ‘em behind the shoulder, they run a short distance and die. This year, on a doe at 250ish yards, I did a high shoulder shot. The deer dropped, but wasn’t dead. It struggled to get up, though that wasn’t going to happen, and I shot it in the head. Didn’t want suffering to continue.

But Hogs, that’s a bit different. I’ve seen too many dead hogs get up and run. I hate tracking wounded hogs. Recently I’ve gone to a 6.5 Grendel for hogs. The AR in 223 wasn’t getting the job done, no matter what bullet I tried, so I upgraded. The Grendel seems about as effective inside 200 yards as my 260, though I always stay on the gun to make sure the ‘dead’ hog doesn’t get up. The most recent hog was down and making his last twitches, but danged if he didn’t finally get back up. I plugged him again, but he still made it to the woods. Dang hogs are tough. I will admit that I was using the 95 gr V-Max that Double Naught recommended against. Just plan on hogs needing to be reshot.
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Old January 30, 2023, 04:39 PM   #33
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Quote:
First we need to throw this "ethical" mess out the window. We try and do our part by being "as ethical as we can" by not allowing the animal to suffer any longer than they need to, but in the real world, most deer are not shot in the heart/lungs or in the brain/(spinal) and can suffer for 30 minutes to an hour or so, or even longer, for worst shot placements.
You made a quantifiable assessment of "most" deer not being shot in the boilerroom, spine, or brain (pretty much all the critical vitals except for the liver). Can you quantify it or are you making a random guess?

Quote:
I hafta disagree. I've been bowhunting since 1966. Know a lot of bowhunters. Skill levels and technology of equipment has made for incredible accuracy. While there will always be a fair amount of "poor" hits, I'm gonna say that 80% are probably "Boiler room" hits.
I think I would be hard pressed to say what percentage were decent hits versus poor hits. I do know that a goodly number of folks think in 2D and they tend to shoot for landmarks on the outside of the animal with hopes of hitting structures inside the animal, but often I don't think hunters are very confident as to where those structures specifically are. They often do not understand how the structures actually work in the body and they they are surprised when their deer/hog/elk/bear doesn't go down with the shot.

I can't find the statistics for it, but I would GUESS that 5% of hunters each year are new and maybe 30% are still what I would consider to be fairly inexperienced. So I figure at least that many people are getting a pretty good dose of buck fever. Some will shoot fine. Some will make some extraordinarily bad shots.

I have a firefighter buddy that in his spare time during hunting season will track down people's 'lost' deer. I have followed his progress on FB as he posts trophy pics every time one of his dogs finds a 'lost' deer. He and I have talked about his work and he has a unique perspective on his sample. That is, most of the deer that he tracks ARE poorly shot and poorly shot by everyone from kids to lifelong hunters. The deer he searches for are generally very NICE deer (often personal trophies). He usually doesn't get hired to find a button buck somebody shot as a meat animal. Apparently, the price of ethics (for finding the lost deer) often tied to how good of a trophy it is.

With that said, his take is that outside of the bad shots, he sees some weird stuff with deer killed with shots that you would not expect to be lethal to deer double lunged (through and through shot) and found still alive several hours later. There are still losses, even from some "good" shots.

I am just not convinced we could put a percentage on the number of deer poorly shot (quantitative assessment on a qualitative category). I am not sure we could even put a tally on the number of deer shot and lost by hunters (poorly shot or otherwise). So much of this stuff simply does not get reported or does not get reported accurately. It can be hard to rectify the claims of great shooting and the reality of lost animals.
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Old January 30, 2023, 08:29 PM   #34
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I don't see how you can assign any percentage numbers with a sound basis in reality. Just seems to me to be a matter of throwing numbers "against the wall" then you deciding which one(s) "stick".

I think there just too many variables involved to be able to "boil it down" to an average statistic, so you can use it to argue some point.

If, for example, based on your experience 30% of people do X in a given situation, and based on my experience with different people only 5% will do X in the same situation, which of us is right and which is wrong? And how do you pick a number to use when referring to who will do X how often and when?

I don't see that you can, other than just making something up.
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Old January 31, 2023, 11:24 AM   #35
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People talk about hunting as if we all were in the same ecosystem and it's just not so.

What works fine in the plains isn't the same as the dense forest. But one thing is always clear-

I can shoot crazy more accurate at the range than I can in the field. Crazy more accurate.

In the field, my heart is pounding. There are twigs, sticks, saplings and tree branches. I have shot them all. You are looking at the animal and you can't see the stuff inbetween, you just can't. Shots go astray. The more I hunted, the more I avoided shooting stuff between me and my target but... I am always grateful that I don't mess up and when I do, I do the work needed. I imagine in the plains that wind and distance are major and in the mountains it's yet more problems.

Target shooting is necessary but not sufficient. Experience at hunting is not something you can practice other than by hunting.

Having a good mentor that has experience hunting in the terrain you are in is very valuable.

My opinion is "Always have enough gun." When I was younger, I thought "Oh, I have a .357 Mag carbine! Why not use that instead of the .44 Magnum?"

Tracking the resulting lost deer made me curse my decision. Would the mistake have been fixed by the .44? I don't know, but I would not be out tracking, wondering if my ego caused a beautiful animal to suffer more than needs be.

Changing the topic to bird hunting.... the last pheasant I shot, I shot twice. The first shot was a few feathers falling off, the second shot was a downed bird. Cripples are a fact of life in pheasant hunting, which is why we use retrievers. That, and chickens can run a long way with their heads chopped off.
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Old January 31, 2023, 04:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Changing the topic to bird hunting.... the last pheasant I shot, I shot twice. The first shot was a few feathers falling off, the second shot was a downed bird. Cripples are a fact of life in pheasant hunting, which is why we use retrievers. That, and chickens can run a long way with their heads chopped off.
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An observation on pheasants: Knocking feathers out of them or rolling them isn;t enough. Watch their head, If they have control of their head, hit them again. If the head and neck are flopping, its lights out.

And I agree about the dog. Bird recovery is MUCH better.Plus the dog (trained) adds so much to the hunt.
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Old January 31, 2023, 05:31 PM   #37
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A 338 Lapua with a 20" barrel? Holy Moly!
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Old March 14, 2023, 10:13 PM   #38
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I have only had to shoot one deer a second time since I shot my first deer in 1987.
A second shot was required because I was using an unfamiliar rifle in .243 and hit way too high. I tookout part of the spine and paralyzed the rear legs. The buck was still trying to go with its front legs and I had to shoot it a second time.

Ortherwise, every deer has been DRT to an extreme of running 50 yards after being hit. Ive used .243, .25-06, .30-30, .308 and .44 magnum on deer over the years. Bullet weights from 90 to 265 grains. Bullet designs were either SPs or HPs.

Shot placement is key, followed by bullet design, imo.
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Old March 15, 2023, 04:05 PM   #39
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I've only lost two deer in all the time I've spent hunting. I don't recall how many deer over 74 years of hunting. ok my first deer at age 11, currently half way to age 85. Some deer dropped on the spot, never more to move while some dropped and required a finishing shot. Some ran off and died at various distances from where they'd been shot and had to be found. No real idea of the percentage.
On elk, all seven have dropped on the spot. Three were DRT and the rest were down hard but still alive; trying to get up but unable to accomplish that result. Finishing shots were required.
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Old March 18, 2023, 08:13 AM   #40
Nathan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan31
I plan to use another MDT Chassis and a custom action in .338 Lapua which may get a can on it since barrel length will be at 20" or slightly less. WA moose are smaller than the big boys way up north but none the less not small. I shoot .300 Win Mag now and people acted like I would be sore afterwards...nope.
Nobody wants to talk about this?

As you have read, drt usually involves animal hit in the nervous system.

A well placed shot in the heart, double lung, etc often results in some walking before death. Often less than 1 min.

It doesn’t take a 338 Lapua to do this. Besides, coming out of a 20” barrel, it will have lots of recoil, but about the same effectiveness as a 338 Win Mag. Most of us can “handle” recoil, but our best shooting comes from something 223-308 sized. 7 rm, 300 WM, 338/06 might be better choices as may a 22” barrel.
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Old March 18, 2023, 03:31 PM   #41
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Every year since 2000 i've taken 2-8 deer. 95 percent of my deer since were taken with a muzzleloader at ranges of <60 yards. Shots are picked carefully and over 50 percent bang flopped. No deer i've shot has traveled more than 100 yards after being hit since 2008.

For many years i tracked wounded deer and elk for other hunters. Many hunters who called the dog and myself could not pinpoint the spot the animal was at when shot. While on a tracking job another hunter said he may have hit a trophy buck. i found a streak of blood and gore eight feet long where the bullet exited, we found that huge deer.

Most animals i tracked were shot behind the diaphragm.

Last season i took a deer to the local processor. i mentioned to a butcher that elk season would soon open. He hated to see the elk come because most were badly shot up.

My .50 caliber Encore rifle fires a .451 250 grain SST bullet set in a sabot. My powder charges are heavier than most muzzleloader hunters use; 120 or 140 grains of powder. Sometime the bullet exits, sometimes not. Typically the heart and lungs are reduced to mush by bullet fragments. Several years ago i started doing CNS shots whenever possible, bang flops.
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Old March 18, 2023, 10:30 PM   #42
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While I don't want to talk you out of a rifle build if that's what you want, you stated that you already have enough gun for moose. You said you have a 300 mag. That's plenty of rifle for moose. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt them with a 30-06. Choose a well built bullet of 200 grains or more, intended for hunting. Several are available in bonded core. Nosler Partition is a good choice. Put the bullet in the proper place on the animal and it won't go far. The areas that moose inhabit in Washington will probably have you fairly close, but there is a possibility for a longer shot. Practice regularly and know your limits. If you have to get closer, do so. The terrain and flora should give you a way to get closer.

You have plenty of time to practice and or build that new rifle. On average it takes 18 years to draw a moose permit in Washington. We don't have many tags available.
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