Tokarev TT-33 vs. Colt M1911 A1 - Page 2

BlueTrain · April 2, 2012, 03:45 PM

The 7.62 Tokarev was based closely on the 7.63 Mauser, also called .30 Mauser, which was popular in Russia while they were in production. The Mauser C96 of course predates both the .45 ACP and the 9mm, barely. It was really the 9mm that got a late start in the game in a manner of speaking. I doubt anything in .30 Mauser found its way here before WWI while .45 autos were relatively widespread.

In any event, it's a rare soldier that gets to pick his personal weapon. Still, battlefield trophies have always been prized but the junior grades tend not to have them.

kozak6 · April 2, 2012, 11:37 PM

I'd go for the M1911A1 in .45 acp simply due to supply issues.

There wasn't much 7.62x25 on the Western front or in the Pacific theatre, as I understand it. 7.63 Mauser works, but it's still fairly uncommon.

The 10mm seems like a great way to ensure there would be no possibility of resupply.

Smit · April 3, 2012, 12:17 AM

Wow it's this F*&#^'in guy again. The 1911 is better than the Tokarev, end of story. Go America

Tactical Jackalope · April 3, 2012, 12:25 AM

1911 1911 1911 1911 1911
1911 1911 1911 1911
1911 1911 1911
1911 1911
1911

USA baby!

tahunua001 · April 3, 2012, 12:39 AM

I would take neither. 1911 triggers just have not agreed with me and toks ergos have also been hard pressed to impress me. now many will call this blasphemy but if someone designed a nice double stack, 7.62x25mm 1911 with a XDM style trigger I would buy it in a heart beat...

for the time being 30 tok is still cheaper than 45ACP. it has hunting level penetration and it's not hard to find ballistic tips or soft points to load in order to make a good hunting round.

call me an oddball but that's just how my cookie crumbled.

gyvel · April 3, 2012, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Let's look at it this way. One of those two designs is in current uninterrupted production. One of those designs is in current use by top tier law enforcement and special operations folks. One of those two designs is consistently in the winners circle in various shooting disciplines etc. and so forth.

That's debatable. The Tokarev was in production and military use in one form or another until the late 80s that I know of, and variations thereof are still being produced in China and sold commercially throughout the world.

While in Iloilo, Philippines last Novemever, I saw a new version of a Tok that I had never seen before, known as the "NO4," made by Norinco. I have pics, but they won't download here via the attachment feature right now.

But, to answer the original question, I'll take a 1911.

**Mike Irwin** · April 3, 2012, 06:21 AM

"It's always nice to touch the enemy from where he cannot touch you back."

Yep, thank God Hitler never gave his troops rifles, or submachine guns, or anything like that...

"7.62x25 dates to 1930 from everything I can dig up."

The 7.62 is really nothing more than a manufacturing variation of the 7.63x25 Mauser cartridge, which started life in the late 1800s.

After World War I when both Germany and Russia were parriahas on the international scene they out of necessity developed trade and military ties.

Russia ended up purchasing quite a few thousand C96 Mauser handguns and millions of rounds of ammunition.

When they started loading it domestically, dimensions were changed slightly to better suit what the Russians had in the way of manufacturing capabilities.

The 7.62 Tok and the 7.63 Mauser can often be used interchangeably in either the TT pistols or the C96.

"Let's look at it this way. One of those two designs is in current uninterrupted production."

That's sort of disingenuous to say that makes the 1911 "better."

The reason the 1911 is still in production in the United States and is a hit with the civilian market is, unlike the communist nations, there IS a civilian handgun market in the United States.

BlueTrain · April 3, 2012, 06:27 AM

No matter what army you're in, doesn't it always seem like the other side has better weapons?

SPEMack618 · April 3, 2012, 07:55 AM

I don't know BlueTrain, I would certainly take an M-1 Garand over an Ariska or Enfield.

Or my M-4 over one of those same Enfields today.

gyvel · April 3, 2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Or my M-4 over one of those same Enfields today.

One of those Lee-Enfields would still give your M4 a run for its money, though.

raftman · April 3, 2012, 12:19 PM

If the decision were being made on cool-factor alone, then hands down the Tokarev comes out on top.

Winchester_73 · April 4, 2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

If the decision were being made on cool-factor alone, then hands down the Tokarev comes out on top.

So either you never saw a 1911, never used one, never owned one, or are flaming the thread!

RedBowTies88 · April 4, 2012, 08:42 AM

Toks are way cooler then 1911's. Reguardless of which one is "better"

gyvel · April 4, 2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Toks are way cooler then 1911's. Reguardless of which one is "better"

And this is how Chrysler stays in business...

RedBowTies88 · April 4, 2012, 09:25 AM

I'm a chevy guy

**Mike Irwin** · April 4, 2012, 10:01 AM

And I'm a Subaru Outback guy who's going to all-wheel drive over all of you in a minute if you don't pull it back on track...

gyvel · April 4, 2012, 10:13 AM

The "neatest" Tokarev I have handled and shot to date is the CZ 88. I got hold of a couple when Sarco was selling them. They are just the right size for a 9mm, kind of like a Tokarev "Commander." EAA took over importing and selling them for a while, but K-Var has them now.

RedBowTies88 · April 4, 2012, 10:38 AM

Eaa still lists the model 88 on their site?

I need to get a standard tok first before I worry about about the M88. I've had the joy of shooting a few and really liked them. If you could still get the 9mm barrels for them I would of had one already.

I almost ALMOST bought a yugo m57.. glad I didnt though. holding out for a nice polish to match my p64.

gyvel · April 4, 2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Eaa still lists the model 88 on their site?

No. Sales and distribution is being handled by K-Var currently.

The ones I got from Sarco had original wood grips with a ZCZ medallion in one grip, and the slides were marked with the Zastava name. Also, the mags had metal finger extensions, not plastic. Apparently, they were imported prior to to BATF's "hissy fit" time regarding origins and importers, as the Sarco mark is incredibly tiny and just about illegible.

They do use Norinco 213 mags, but you lose the finger rest.

GaryH · April 4, 2012, 03:10 PM

1911

amd6547 · April 4, 2012, 06:40 PM

I like both the Tok and the 1911. Both are great designs.
For me, the Tok makes a lot of sense as a secondary weapon to a long arm, since it is smaller and thinner. I also like that the Tok round has such flat trajectory, and penetrates so well.
My personal Romanian Tok serves as my backpack pistol due to its size to power ratio, it's reliability, and the fact that it was cheap to acquire.
I find that just about any reasonably sized target I aim at is in serious danger of perforation out to 100yds with the Tok.

jhenry · April 4, 2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

That's debatable. The Tokarev was in production and military use in one form or another until the late 80s that I know of, and variations thereof are still being produced in China and sold commercially throughout the world.

It's only debatable if you take one portion of my statement and run with it. II will conceded that Toks in some form or another are being made somewhere. They are still not the choice of top tier law enforcement and military units, or in the winners circle of a variety of shooting disciplines.

Quote:

"Let's look at it this way. One of those two designs is in current uninterrupted production."

That's sort of disingenuous to say that makes the 1911 "better."

It would in fact be disingenuous if that was all there was to the statement, but it isn't. I find it to be disingenuous to take one portion of a statement intended to stand as a whole and to portray it in some other fashion.

raftman · April 5, 2012, 12:35 AM

Quote:

If the decision were being made on cool-factor alone, then hands down the Tokarev comes out on top.

Quote:

So either you never saw a 1911, never used one, never owned one, or are flaming the thread!

Seen 'em, used 'em, and even owned a couple. They're not bad guns by any means... but sorely lag behind in the cool factor. It's like comparing buttermilk to birch sap vodka.

gyvel · April 5, 2012, 07:08 AM

Quote:

They are still not the choice of top tier law enforcement and military units, or in the winners circle of a variety of shooting disciplines.

Unfortunately, neither is the 1911. While it remains popular in commercial circles, it is no longer in widespread use by any "top tier" LE or military agency that I know of. Seems as though that role has been filled by Berettas and Glocks.

Now, having said that, I am a HUGE fan of the 1911, but I daresay in other parts of the world, you're more likely to encounter a Tokarev than a 1911.

SPEMack618 · April 5, 2012, 07:30 AM

I thought LAPD SWAT, LAPD SIS, and the FBI HRT all used -1911s of some sort. And don't forget the MEU(SOC) guys going with the M-45.

April 2, 2012, 03:45 PM	#26
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	The 7.62 Tokarev was based closely on the 7.63 Mauser, also called .30 Mauser, which was popular in Russia while they were in production. The Mauser C96 of course predates both the .45 ACP and the 9mm, barely. It was really the 9mm that got a late start in the game in a manner of speaking. I doubt anything in .30 Mauser found its way here before WWI while .45 autos were relatively widespread. In any event, it's a rare soldier that gets to pick his personal weapon. Still, battlefield trophies have always been prized but the junior grades tend not to have them. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

April 3, 2012, 12:39 AM	#30
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I would take neither. 1911 triggers just have not agreed with me and toks ergos have also been hard pressed to impress me. now many will call this blasphemy but if someone designed a nice double stack, 7.62x25mm 1911 with a XDM style trigger I would buy it in a heart beat... for the time being 30 tok is still cheaper than 45ACP. it has hunting level penetration and it's not hard to find ballistic tips or soft points to load in order to make a good hunting round. call me an oddball but that's just how my cookie crumbled. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

April 3, 2012, 06:21 AM	#32
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	"It's always nice to touch the enemy from where he cannot touch you back." Yep, thank God Hitler never gave his troops rifles, or submachine guns, or anything like that... "7.62x25 dates to 1930 from everything I can dig up." The 7.62 is really nothing more than a manufacturing variation of the 7.63x25 Mauser cartridge, which started life in the late 1800s. After World War I when both Germany and Russia were parriahas on the international scene they out of necessity developed trade and military ties. Russia ended up purchasing quite a few thousand C96 Mauser handguns and millions of rounds of ammunition. When they started loading it domestically, dimensions were changed slightly to better suit what the Russians had in the way of manufacturing capabilities. The 7.62 Tok and the 7.63 Mauser can often be used interchangeably in either the TT pistols or the C96. "Let's look at it this way. One of those two designs is in current uninterrupted production." That's sort of disingenuous to say that makes the 1911 "better." The reason the 1911 is still in production in the United States and is a hit with the civilian market is, unlike the communist nations, there IS a civilian handgun market in the United States. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 3, 2012, 06:27 AM	#33
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	No matter what army you're in, doesn't it always seem like the other side has better weapons? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

April 3, 2012, 07:55 AM	#34
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	I don't know BlueTrain, I would certainly take an M-1 Garand over an Ariska or Enfield. Or my M-4 over one of those same Enfields today. __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

April 2, 2012, 11:37 PM	#27
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	I'd go for the M1911A1 in .45 acp simply due to supply issues. There wasn't much 7.62x25 on the Western front or in the Pacific theatre, as I understand it. 7.63 Mauser works, but it's still fairly uncommon. The 10mm seems like a great way to ensure there would be no possibility of resupply.

April 3, 2012, 12:17 AM	#28
Smit Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2012 Posts: 335	Wow it's this F*&#^'in guy again. The 1911 is better than the Tokarev, end of story. Go America

April 3, 2012, 12:25 AM	#29
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 1911 USA baby!

April 3, 2012, 12:19 PM	#36
raftman Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,890	If the decision were being made on cool-factor alone, then hands down the Tokarev comes out on top. __________________ "My momma, she done told me, there's heart and then there's hate If one of 'em's inside of you, the other one, it aint."

April 4, 2012, 08:42 AM	#38
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 705	Toks are way cooler then 1911's. Reguardless of which one is "better" __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)

April 4, 2012, 09:25 AM	#40
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 705	I'm a chevy guy __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)

April 4, 2012, 10:01 AM	#41
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	And I'm a Subaru Outback guy who's going to all-wheel drive over all of you in a minute if you don't pull it back on track... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 4, 2012, 10:13 AM	#42
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	The "neatest" Tokarev I have handled and shot to date is the CZ 88. I got hold of a couple when Sarco was selling them. They are just the right size for a 9mm, kind of like a Tokarev "Commander." EAA took over importing and selling them for a while, but K-Var has them now.

April 4, 2012, 10:38 AM	#43
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 705	Eaa still lists the model 88 on their site? I need to get a standard tok first before I worry about about the M88. I've had the joy of shooting a few and really liked them. If you could still get the 9mm barrels for them I would of had one already. I almost ALMOST bought a yugo m57.. glad I didnt though. holding out for a nice polish to match my p64. __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)

April 4, 2012, 03:10 PM	#45
GaryH Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2011 Posts: 134	1911

April 4, 2012, 06:40 PM	#46
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	I like both the Tok and the 1911. Both are great designs. For me, the Tok makes a lot of sense as a secondary weapon to a long arm, since it is smaller and thinner. I also like that the Tok round has such flat trajectory, and penetrates so well. My personal Romanian Tok serves as my backpack pistol due to its size to power ratio, it's reliability, and the fact that it was cheap to acquire. I find that just about any reasonably sized target I aim at is in serious danger of perforation out to 100yds with the Tok. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

April 5, 2012, 07:30 AM	#50
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	I thought LAPD SWAT, LAPD SIS, and the FBI HRT all used -1911s of some sort. And don't forget the MEU(SOC) guys going with the M-45. __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"