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Old January 24, 2016, 06:12 PM   #1
gunnerk19
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Written essay in order to get your pistol permit?

Just saw this today, seems that the Lowell, MA Police Department is now requiring permit applicants to submit a written essay stating why they feel they need a gun...

http://gunsnfreedom.com/ma-city-requ...un-permit/6277

Now feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that qualify as a Federal "Conspiracy against Rights" violation?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/241
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Old January 24, 2016, 06:38 PM   #2
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I can certainly see a case made by an individual who had been denied, and then fell victim to crime, where had they been armed they could have defended themselves. Though looking at things in black and white when it comes to the law, is not always the correct perspective.
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Old January 24, 2016, 06:39 PM   #3
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Seems like a reasonable lawyer could make an analogy to Jim Crow voting literacy tests back in the 60s.
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Old January 24, 2016, 07:01 PM   #4
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Get a copy of successful essays, they have to give out public records, even if the names are redacted.

If they deny you based on your essay that is exactly like one approved, sue them for arbitrary and capricious actions.

Have your attorney complete the essay for you, or else it could end up in court against you some day.

Aren't "May Issue" laws wonderful? They can do anything they want and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. They have the prerogative.
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Old January 24, 2016, 07:46 PM   #5
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^^^^^ That's the way to do it.
If everyone copied a successful letter, then that would make a mockery of the law.
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Old January 24, 2016, 08:39 PM   #6
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Actually the city of Lowell, MA is more liberal in issuing concealed carry permits than some jurisdictions in MA. Some simply reject the request for a concealed carry permit out of hand.
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Old January 25, 2016, 12:45 AM   #7
MurBob
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So write an essay about the 2nd amendment and hand it in. What's the big deal?
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Old January 25, 2016, 03:47 AM   #8
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And if, for some reason, you are functionally illiterate, or severely dyslexic??? Sounds like really nice grounds for a discrimination suit.
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Old January 25, 2016, 08:22 AM   #9
Salmoneye
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Actually the city of Lowell, MA is more liberal in issuing concealed carry permits than some jurisdictions in MA. Some simply reject the request for a concealed carry permit out of hand.
That may be true, but according to The Lowell Sun (the article linked from the page in the OP), Lowell is near the bottom in issuing permits per capita:

A Sun review last year of state firearms data found Lowell to be among the lowest four-fifths of similar Massachusetts cities in terms of the per-capita rate at which it grants permits.

Read more: http://www.lowellsun.com/breakingnew...#ixzz3yGIkh3o0
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Old January 25, 2016, 09:38 AM   #10
MurBob
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And if, for some reason, you are functionally illiterate,
No gun for the illiterate... No Way, No How. If someone is too stupid to be able to read and write, do you really want them carrying a gun???

Quote:
or severely dyslexic??? Sounds like really nice grounds for a discrimination suit.
Dyslexic people have normal intelligence.... Medical exception.


Actually, I think the essay rule is kind of stupid too as its been described in the news. If all they want is purely a written statement from you about why you think you should be allowed to carry a weapon then I have no problem with that at all. If a normal person doesn't have the normal intelligence to conjure up a few words, do you really want them running around with a gun???
But if this essay requirement is some kind of wacky academic test and you're going to be graded on originality, grammar, interest, writing skills, etc.. then its not only stupid, I believe its unconstitutional.

I have no problems giving people some kind of intelligence test to carry a weapon... we should give these tests for drivers license's and a host of other things too... But I don't think an essay is the way to do it.. and I also don't think you should have to prove yourself smart, just prove you're not stupid.

Stupid people do stupid things... put a gun into that equation?. I don't think that's a good idea.

EDIT: The prefect test to give would be a test of ones temperament but unfortunately, that technology doesn't exist yet. With the advances in MRI's, it may not be far off.

Last edited by MurBob; January 25, 2016 at 09:53 AM.
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Old January 25, 2016, 10:39 AM   #11
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It's hard to imagine that the ideal of a free America originated in Massachusetts.
If that idea is to be revived there, it's up to the people of Mass.
If they want to live like they're still subjects, so be it.
Although with a little encouragement, maybe the Second Amendment Foundation and/or the NRA could get involved with this one.
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Old January 25, 2016, 11:00 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Gyvel
And if, for some reason, you are functionally illiterate, or severely dyslexic???
I would hate to be severed by a lexan disc!

Turned my application in today:

"What I want for Christmas is a Red Ryder BB Gun with a compass in the stock and this thing which tells time. I think that everybody should have a Red Ryder BB Gun. They’re very good for Christmas. I don’t think that a football is a very good Christmas present."

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Old January 25, 2016, 11:46 AM   #13
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They should get around to replying to that around Christmas !
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Old January 25, 2016, 12:08 PM   #14
RaySendero
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Quote:
MurBob wrote:

So write an essay about the 2nd amendment and hand it in. What's the big deal?

OK Short and sweet:


I feel that the city of Lowell, MA should issue me a pistol permit because the right of the people to keep and bare arms should not be infringed.
© 12/15/1791


...
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Old January 25, 2016, 12:16 PM   #15
MurBob
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I feel that the city of Lowell, MA should issue me a pistol permit because the right of the people to keep and bare arms should not be infringed.
Your essay sucks.. your grade is an "F" as in FAILURE

Here's your permit... have a nice day!
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Old January 25, 2016, 12:35 PM   #16
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And if, for some reason, you are functionally illiterate, or severely dyslexic??? Sounds like really nice grounds for a discrimination suit.
Nope. Not even close. The law is on their side in this matter. And has been, for generations. Essentially, in a "may issue" state, you or I do NOT have the right to a handgun. And please, don't argue that point with me, argue it with them, if you are so inclined. But, don't expect to win, both tradition AND the law are on their side.

Most of the folks on our side believe that restrictions on possessing any kind of weapon is an infringement of our rights. Their side believes that as long as we are allowed some kind of weapon, our rights are not being denied.

Bad as having to write an "essay" is, there are places that are worse! There are places that require written letters from three character references. People whom the local authority considers honest, upstanding and reasonable. People who are NOT related to you, and do not work for you, and who are willing to write such letters, stating how you are "of good moral character" and responsible enough to possess a handgun.

And, that is just ONE of the requirements you must meet, to be CONSIDERED, and you may be denied for any, or no reason which the issuing authority deems fit.

In the 70s where I grew up in NY, the requirements (besides the fee) were 5 sets of fingerprints, 4 photographs, 3 character references (they didn't have to write letters, you just had to provide names & addresses) and then, after the investigation(s) were complete, it went to a judge for approval. One judge would not approve anything but an application that said the permit was for "hunting & sporting purposes". The judge in the next county south would deny everything that did not say the reason was for "personal protection".

I have no idea what their requirements are now, I doubt they are any less than they were then...

Good Luck using Jim Crowe as a legal argument against these "may issue" laws, because while there are some similarities, the differences are hugely significant. There is no nationally recognized right to own a handgun, being the main one. We have a recognized right to vote. The 2nd Amendment states we have a right to "keep and bear arms". If it said "keep and bear handguns" we wouldn't have the argument, but it does not say that.

Also, I would not put any great hope in getting a copy of an approved essay and using it as a blanket form, and taking them to court if they deny you.

Again, because under the law, all that matters is the opinion of the issuing agency. Joe B.'s essay might be fully acceptable, but a copy of his essay with your name on it might not be acceptable at all, simply because you are not him.

Is it fair? I don't think so. Is it equal treatment under the law? Sadly, yes. Everyone has an equal chance of being denied.
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Old January 25, 2016, 06:10 PM   #17
gyvel
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No gun for the illiterate... No Way, No How. If someone is too stupid to be able to read and write, do you really want them carrying a gun???
Being illiterate doesn't mean that you don't have ability to safely use a gun.

Your argument is... Well, never mind.

I know a couple Navajo that are illiterate, but could probably shoot a nickel off your nose at 100 yards.
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Old January 25, 2016, 07:34 PM   #18
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I teach adults. I assign essays as a means of evaluating a student's ability to express critical thought. But my evaluation is completely subjective. This requirement is legal, but it is also a blatant violation of the spirit of our Constitution.
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Old January 25, 2016, 08:14 PM   #19
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You all remember all of the publicity given to the overwhelming ignor... uh... stupidi.....um.... unrest, yeah... the unrest in Ferguson Miser... uh, Missouri, right?

Around that time I found a used handgun for sale that I wanted to purchase at a large local retailer. I haggled a bit and agreed to a price, and was then escorted by an employee over to the check out station to fill out my paperwork and pay.

As I waited in line an employee approached me and asked if I would be willing to assist another customer who was illiterate, in exchange for a $10 credit toward my purchase, by either filling out his paperwork for him, or serving as witness to the process. I replied that I would be happy to assist with no need for any credit.

Myself and another man served as witness, while a third read the questions from the 4473 form to the gentleman, and recorded his answers for him.

This man was easily in his early 80's and accompanied by his wife. He was a tall soft spoken man, and by appearance and mannerism, a gentlemen's gentleman. His wife a petite woman, and obviously a true lady.

They were there together to purchase a handgun for home defense. I knew this because I had overheard a bit of his interaction with the salesman at the gun counter while I was engaged in my own haggling. The responses he gave the man to the questions revealed that he lived in Florissant Missouri, which neighbors Ferguson.

It's not rocket science to glean the couple's motivation in making that purchase. Possibly their dire need to do so.

I know MurBob, that your intent would not be to deny this gentleman and his wife the ability to defend themselves in the face of such unrest.

Literacy has no more bearing on an American citizen's constitutional inalienable rights than his or her FICO score does. That kind of thinking is exactly what we're trying to combat from the opposition in my opinion.

ps I did receive the $10 credit despite having declined it, which brought my purchase from the original $390 price tag down to an even $290 purchase price... cha-ching!
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Old January 25, 2016, 09:21 PM   #20
MurBob
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Being illiterate doesn't mean that you don't have ability to safely use a gun.

I know a couple Navajo that are illiterate, but could probably shoot a nickel off your nose at 100 yards.
I never said it did.. I said illiterate people are stupid and I don't want a stupid person carrying a gun around in public.

Safely using a gun and being wise and responsible enough to carry one around in public are two very different things.

And neither has any bearing or relevance to a persons skill level.
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Old January 25, 2016, 09:37 PM   #21
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I will bet that each of us can name at least a handful of very literate people that we view as 'stupid'. Wisdom and responsibility are not learned from reading books or writing essays, or even on having the ability to.

Quote:
Safely using a gun and being wise and responsible enough to carry one around in public are two very different things.

And neither has any bearing or relevance to a persons skill level.
Nor do they have any bearing on an individuals constitutional rights. I had said that I knew that you had not intended to deprive that couple's right to defend themselves. I may have been wrong.
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Old January 25, 2016, 11:05 PM   #22
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It's not rocket science to glean the couple's motivation in making that purchase. Possibly their dire need to do so.

I know MurBob, that your intent would not be to deny this gentleman and his wife the ability to defend themselves in the face of such unrest.

Literacy has no more bearing on an American citizen's constitutional inalienable rights than his or her FICO score does. That kind of thinking is exactly what we're trying to combat from the opposition in my opinion.
You're pointing out a flaw in my idea of a better method for gun control.... That's good.. unlike most politicians and some of the other morons we have writing laws, I'm a person who listens, learns, and adjusts as necessary.

You are right that my proposed rules would have denied what was probably a perfectly acceptable gun sale to a nice older couple.. I guess no rule is going to be perfect but I think we can do better than what we have now.

I still stand by my original idea. While not perfect, it's hard to argue that stupid people do lots of stupid things and tend to be more aggressive.

Its good to see real world feedback because I never imagined some frail older couple just looking to defend themselves. Maybe the grew up on some country farm back in the old days before basic education was ubiquitously available. My vision was of some gang banger inner city thug who just happens to have a clean record because he hasn't been caught yet... or some drunken back wood's redneck who couldn't finish basic high school.

Kind of strange to think that Martha Stewart can't have a gun... sort of a polar opposite of your old couple example.
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Old January 25, 2016, 11:16 PM   #23
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I will bet that each of us can name at least a handful of very literate people that we view as 'stupid'.
More than a handful! LOL


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Wisdom and responsibility are not learned from reading books or writing essays, or even on having the ability to.
I would emphatically disagree with that. Education is absolutely a prerequisite for wisdom and responsibility.
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Old January 26, 2016, 03:27 AM   #24
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Education is absolutely a prerequisite for wisdom and responsibility.
I would agree with this, entirely. Would you agree that Formal education is not the only acceptable form?

I see two basic schools of thought, those that believe that some sort of test or proof is necessary before permission is granted.

The other believes that this is prior restraint on our rights. It seems callous today, but in an earlier era it was accepted that some people would do bad, or just stupid things (with guns, or about anything else) but until they did, IF they did, their freedoms were not restricted.

And, IF they did such things, serious steps were taken to ensure that they never were able to do it again.

It seems like a good idea, requiring a certain level of competence testing, right? However, on a certain level its the same thing as requiring a written essay or whatever it is that the powers that be decide you have to prove to be "acceptable". In extreme cases this is a really, really, really bad thing.

When those in power get to choose who the "right" people are, history says it is a bad thing for those not "chosen".

And this is what many gun control laws do, give some people the authority to choose who is, and is not the "right" kind of people.
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Old January 26, 2016, 05:33 AM   #25
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Very well said, thank you 44 Amp.
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