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Old November 29, 2022, 07:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
I carry ball in all my autoloaders. Reliability is number one, then shot placement then penetration. Ball does all this well and you don't need it juiced up to go through your target so you can fire faster and poke more holes.
had not thought about ball from that aspect. you can reduce recoil while retaining penetration.
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Old November 29, 2022, 11:34 PM   #52
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I often carry the Buffalo Bore hardcast NON +P .380 in my Remington RM380. I’m really big on penetration.
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Old November 30, 2022, 11:42 AM   #53
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You know, I've never heard that FMJ deforms or vaporizes on a target. Therefore, hardcast can't penetrate deeper than a standard copper FMJ as the density didn't change the shape...
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Old November 30, 2022, 05:25 PM   #54
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This is out of a 2.7" Bbl'ed Sig P238...


Permanent wound cavity.

Does even better from a 3.5" Bbl.




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Old November 30, 2022, 06:01 PM   #55
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Therefore, hardcast can't penetrate deeper than a standard copper FMJ as the density didn't change the shape...
True. The hardcast has the advantage of a flat point!
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Old November 30, 2022, 09:59 PM   #56
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Great read on why flat point meplat only matters on large caliber rifle rounds at 500gr and only a rifle level velocity which even the hottest 380 isn't even at half at.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html


Then, even if meplat mattered in small calibers, which they appear not to, too much of that flatness decreases penetration. This makes sense. Drag either through increased resistance by shape or (strangely, speed) kills penetration. It's why a super hot Gold Dot might not actually be as good as a factory loaded Gold Dot. Drag increases faster than velocity. Cross sectional size increases drag. Drag can't be assumed to be positive or doing anything "better."

https://www.africahunting.com/thread...l-facts.57387/


If you still like it though, white box flat point 380 is certainly cheaper than a special one off by BB.

I don't disagree with someone choosing FMJ for their feeding issues, but JHP for 380 out of an LCP is reaching 9mm JHP performance and no one is advocating for using FMJ instead of JHP in 9mm.
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Old November 30, 2022, 11:08 PM   #57
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Great read on why flat point meplat only matters on large caliber rifle rounds at 500gr and only a rifle level velocity which even the hottest 380 isn't even at half at.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html


Then, even if meplat mattered in small calibers, which they appear not to, too much of that flatness decreases penetration. This makes sense. Drag either through increased resistance by shape or (strangely, speed) kills penetration. It's why a super hot Gold Dot might not actually be as good as a factory loaded Gold Dot. Drag increases faster than velocity. Cross sectional size increases drag. Drag can't be assumed to be positive or doing anything "better."

https://www.africahunting.com/thread...l-facts.57387/


If you still like it though, white box flat point 380 is certainly cheaper than a special one off by BB.

I don't disagree with someone choosing FMJ for their feeding issues, but JHP for 380 out of an LCP is reaching 9mm JHP performance and no one is advocating for using FMJ instead of JHP in 9mm.
My friend had hunting experience with wide flat meplates related to hunting. Mainly using 44spl loads in a rifle at around 1300fps. Cuts an inch and a half diameter hole in one side and out the other of a deer. We also tested these loads against 240g xtp bullets in ballistics gel. While the hollow point provided a larger initial cavity it tapered off. While the wide flat nose punched a wide cavity, larger in total size in one side and out the other.

I have also tested in 9mm, 124g gold dots and hst vs an odd 70g federal frangible flat point at 1500fps(i chronoed it) in gel. The 70g held together and created a wicked cavity.

I have also done some testing with 38spl and 357 mag with wide flat nose bullets. What i found is that they seemed to excell in 357 mag, but under perform in the 38spl. It was somewhere around the 1200fps range. Still more tested to do, its on one of my project lists somewhere.

Based on my friends experience, and my testing i believe wide flat meplates, even in smaller diameter projectiles of the .355 petsussion, in the low supersonic range, punch far above what they should in performance.
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Old December 1, 2022, 10:06 AM   #58
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I don't think flat FMJ is the recommended defense anywhere for any circumstance.

For example, all 40 S&W FMJ, typically is greater than any 38spl speed, and is all flat point. Gold Dot is the standard in 40 for all agency use.

True on 38spl to what you say for wadcutter not working. It is the worst looking stuff on luckygunner:


https://www.luckygunner.com/38spl-wi...-wc-50#geltest


https://www.luckygunner.com/38-speci...rounds#geltest

Not being rude with you, but I don't think you and your friend proved 357mag in wadcutter is more effective than JHP.
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Old December 1, 2022, 11:08 AM   #59
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Old December 1, 2022, 12:23 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
I don't think flat FMJ is the recommended defense anywhere for any circumstance.

For example, all 40 S&W FMJ, typically is greater than any 38spl speed, and is all flat point. Gold Dot is the standard in 40 for all agency use.

True on 38spl to what you say for wadcutter not working. It is the worst looking stuff on luckygunner:


https://www.luckygunner.com/38spl-wi...-wc-50#geltest


https://www.luckygunner.com/38-speci...rounds#geltest

Not being rude with you, but I don't think you and your friend proved 357mag in wadcutter is more effective than JHP.
I was planning to melt my gel block back down next week for some testing. I will try and put the 357s back through the block again and get some pics for you. I would not have believed it had i not done it myself, no offense taken.
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Old December 1, 2022, 12:26 PM   #61
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^^^ It looks like a .380 FMJ and a 9mm have equal penetration in the intended target, aka over penetration.
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Old December 1, 2022, 02:37 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
You know, I've never heard that FMJ deforms or vaporizes on a target. Therefore, hardcast can't penetrate deeper than a standard copper FMJ as the density didn't change the shape...
Standard pressure Buffalo Bore HC-FN are 100-gr bullets; they offer standard pressure FMJ-FN with 95-gr bullets. Thus, the heavier, more dense HC bullets have a greater sectional density.

In Charles Schwartz, 2012, Quantitative Ammunition Selection, iUniverse, Bloomington, IN, bullet penetration into the human body is well modeled as follows:

Xₜ = Dₛ × Vᵃ

where:

• Xₜ is the bullet terminal penetration depth in inches;
• Dₛ is the bullet sectional density in pounds per square inch;
• V is the bullet impact velocity in feet per second; and,
• a is a unitless bullet form factor.

The respective sectional densities for the HC-FN and FMJ-FN are 0.144 and 0.137 lb/in². Their respective velocities out of a 2.75-in barrel are 910 and 888 ft/s (the HC bullet has less friction with the barrel; thus, it is faster). The form factor for the two bullets is identical at 0.735 (that for a truncated cone).

Crunching the numbers, the predicted penetration for the HC-FN is 21.6 in, and that for the FMJ-FN is 20.1 in. Being heavier and faster the HC-FN should penetrate about 7.2% more than the FMJ-FN, but both have far more penetration potential than is needed to overpenetrate the human body, even in many suboptimal sight pictures. I see no need for premium ammo to assure great penetration when typical FMJ-RN "practice" ammo will also be likely to overpenetrate. But, if penetration is what you're after, HC bullets are one way to get it.
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Old December 1, 2022, 02:44 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
I carry ball in all my autoloaders. Reliability is number one, then shot placement then penetration. Ball does all this well and you don't need it juiced up to go through your target so you can fire faster and poke more holes.
This is one reason my current go-to general purpose load for .380 is the sinterfire 75gr NXG copper solid. Mainly for targets and plinking, but I don't mind pressing them into service for self-defense, either.

1) It's cheaper than essentially any factory new, brass case FMJ ammo I can find (at least on ammoseek.com).

2) A 75 grains, the recoil impulse feels like an extra-hot .32acp load -- substantially less than a standard 95 grain FMJ. This is an excellent feature, especially for blowback .380's. It's noticeable. And, in addition to being easier to manage in rapid fire, it's also easier on the gun.

3) At the same time, the muzzle ENERGY is actually greater than a standard 95 grain FMJ, due to the higher velocity.

4) The flat point bullet might be a marginally better shape than standard FMJ, which is optimized for creating low-drag wounds that close up most of the way after the bullet passes through. Okay, this is probably not going to matter much, but at least it's not the worst possible shape.

For self-defense, I feel these are about equivalent to 9mm FMJ, assuming they cycle the gun in question. Although, the first law of handgun stopping power appears to be the differences are much smaller than you think.
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Old December 1, 2022, 05:07 PM   #64
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The problem with higher velocity and the equation above is neither account for drag.

The rate of drag increase is 4x greater than velocity. Gold Dot 223 only goes 14" in gel. But it does it at 2700fps. Without the rifle damage effect at the TFL agreed upon min of 2,600fps, increased velocity creates drag significantly faster and provides no benefit. No rifle damage, increased drag, possible under penetration, and no documented real accounts on bullet failure.

Federal even shrugged its shoulders on lbs per square inch as meaningful and said on target results weren't translating.

It's bullet design. The two best expanders and almost best penetrators on luckygunner for 9mm were 150gr, 800fps 9mm "Micro" HST and 900fps Ranger. That's slow. HST 150gr was the 2nd slowest of all.
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Old December 1, 2022, 09:53 PM   #65
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^^^ It looks like a .380 FMJ and a 9mm have equal penetration in the intended target, aka over penetration.
That's why I like the Winchester PDX1 95 gr..

Almost twice the diameter and 8-12" penetration.




GR
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Old December 5, 2022, 01:12 PM   #66
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PDX1 is a weird one. I don't like it in 9mm. But it does appear to be a good expander in 380. But it kinda seems to lack penetration where others expand too like Gold Dot or Sig.

I've enjoyed the talk. Take care!
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Old December 7, 2022, 12:57 PM   #67
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PDX1 is a weird one. I don't like it in 9mm. But it does appear to be a good expander in 380. But it kinda seems to lack penetration where others expand too like Gold Dot or Sig.

I've enjoyed the talk. Take care!
Wide, reliable expansion - in exchange for penetration I don't need.

A fair trade.

Good hits count.

Bigger hits count more.




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Old December 7, 2022, 09:16 PM   #68
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Two or three years ago I started using Sig 100gr FMJ for .380 carry ammo. 910 fps and 184 ft/lbs ME, both being a tad less than 95gr FMJ from other companies.

It was $19 for a box of 50, now it's $35 for 50.
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Old December 8, 2022, 12:10 PM   #69
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Sig dropping nickel plated cases without dropping the price vs Federal/CCI not dropping nickel and not increasing price...not impressed with them
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