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Old April 9, 2021, 06:41 PM   #26
HiBC
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Off topic,but relevant.
A bi-partisan commision has been formed in the name of restructuring SCOTUS.

Do we have a "combined arms" approach to assaulting the RTKBA?

POTUS check

BATF regulatory and bureacracy....pending

Congress majority check

SCOTUS pending

media,social,and news check (including empasis on crime,de-emphasis of armed citizen)

Tech and other large capitalist influences,banks,retail chains, e-bay,etc check

What the NRA has been doing vs what they should be doing check.

Public school indoctrination and decline of youth participation in shooting sports. Includes trashing the Constitution


Positives? A lot of new gun owners.

Action items?

Take new gun owners and kids shooting

Replace NRA leadership

Fight to preserve SCOTUS

Take Senate and/or Hose majority 2022
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Old April 9, 2021, 06:45 PM   #27
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How do you ban lower receivers? Isn’t that banning AR15 since that is the legal firearm.

I am not sure how you ban non firearms either.


I am also worried about AR pistols. I guess allowing them to be NFA items and giving free tax stamps would suck less —- they have to grandfather in existing ones right?
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Old April 9, 2021, 07:08 PM   #28
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These "Executive Directives" are not orders or laws. They are worth less than the paper they are printed on. What is concerning, what's coming down the road. This is only the beginning of a bad moon rising.
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Old April 9, 2021, 07:10 PM   #29
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What I see as a possible remedy would be yes all 80% are serialized and documentation Hass to be filled out and kept for all that are sold . No background check is needed but you still fill out the same type of paperwork . Basically everything a gun manufacturer distributor and gun store has to do to sell a firearm except nobody hast to do a background check . This will allow them to trace the history from the manufacture of the 80% to the first owner .
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Old April 9, 2021, 07:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Metal god
What I see as a possible remedy would be yes all 80% are serialized and documentation Hass to be filled out and kept for all that are sold . No background check is needed but you still fill out the same type of paperwork . Basically everything a gun manufacturer distributor and gun store has to do to sell a firearm except nobody hast to do a background check . This will allow them to trace the history from the manufacture of the 80% to the first owner .
As usual, the crux of the matter will be in the language of any new regulation they enact, or new interpretation issued to change the enforcement of existing law and regulations.

What is an "80% receiver"? It's an arbitrary determination that the manufacturer can finish it THIIIIS far without it's becoming a firearm. Drill one more hole or make one more cut, and it's a firearm. But it's an arbitrary call. Who can say with any amount of exactitude that this receiver still requires 20% of the work to be done, but that one over there only needs 18%? I've seen ads for 60% 1911 receivers. If "80%" receivers are going to henceforth be considered "ghost guns" and subject to serial numbering, background checks, and sale through FFLs (even though, by definition, they are still NOT firearms) ... what about 60% receivers? What about 40% receivers? What about the cast-your-own polymer AR-15 lowers?

I don't know if they have any left but Sarco used to sell leftover raw frame castings for Para-Ordnance 1911s. They weren't ingots, they were castings, and they looked about as much like a gun as that cookie the kid got banned from school for chewing into the profile of a gun, but the [very] rough outline is there. Would those be considered to be ghost guns?

[Edit to add] Yes, Sarco still has Para castings. These aren't 80% receivers, they aren't 60% receivers, these are raw castings. Are thet "ghost guns"?

https://www.sarcoinc.com/1911-frame-...frame-casting/

We don't know. We'll have to wait to find out.
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Old April 9, 2021, 07:55 PM   #31
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It occurs to me that Cabot Gun Company made a 1911 out of a meteorite. Depending on how a new regulation might be worded (or an existing regulation interpreted) ...

Is this going to be classified as a "ghost gun"?


[Image in the public domain]
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Old April 9, 2021, 10:53 PM   #32
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Ummmm, ok.
I hope they come back with "Sir, we already did that, do you ave any real questions to ask?"

https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/w...al-3.21.17.pdf

I mean that is pretty damn clear IMO, at least to those who can read....
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Old April 9, 2021, 11:55 PM   #33
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What I see as a possible remedy would be yes all 80% are serialized and documentation Hass to be filled out and kept for all that are sold ...
I'm sure some will propose something like that, though I do wonder why you include all the legal requirements for purchasing a firearm, and leave out the background check?

I have issues with treating anything as something it is NOT. If it is a firearm, fine, its a firearm, but if its NOT a firearm, what justification (other than the tyranny of pandering to a political group being forced on all of us) can there be for treating it as a firearm?

IF/WHEN it becomes one, then it is one, until then, its not, and in my opinion should be left the hell alone, as far as firearms laws are concerned.

What else, if anything, in our modern world is treated that way? I see this as constructive possession writ LARGE, at the very least.

Too many people seem to have become obsessed with what MIGHT happen, and want "laws" to prevent what literally does not yet exist. Why is it that when people who can be identified as belonging to a specific group, be it political, religious, or even racial, commit crimes we are constantly told that the group should not be held responsible or accountable, or punished, and yet if that group happens to be people who own guns, then we are all tarred by the same brush and held accountable for the acts of deranged individuals simply because the only thing we have in common with them is that we own guns??

There is nothing in this world that I can think of that cannot be misused to cause harm to others, including language. Are we now doomed to an existence where our individual lives and property are legally dominated by the fear of what others might do with theirs?

Where does the 80% rule currently in use end up? If I'm selling 80% finished lowers and a new rule makes them the same as an actual firearm, I'm going to be really tempted to sell 75% finished lowers. They can reset the legal limit, and I can offer another product that complies, on and on until the limit becomes 0%. Is that what we want? is that something we can afford to accept???

because things have to be treated equally under the law, or so we've been told our entire lives. Of course, we've also been told we are innocent until proven guilty, and as we've seen for many years now, gun owners are not being treated that way....

Inanimate objects (aka "things") are not evil. Nor are they good, they are neither, without the hand of man. Aren't we past the point where things are blamed for the acts of men? (apparently not yet..) but shouldn't we be???
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Old April 10, 2021, 05:00 AM   #34
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No one wants to say the real reason for gun control. It is about Power. So does anyone think for a second that Ghost gun are used in Places like just this ONE section of Chicago? Now take similar cities all across the US. And Chicago is chock full of gun laws. Lol, these shooting are NOT from law abiding Citizens that go through the normal standard gun purchase laws. Gun laws are a joke to them.

https://heyjackass.com/category/2020/
2020 Totals (vs 2019)
Shot & Killed: 719 (+55%)
Shot & Wounded: 3455(+51%)
Total Shot: 4174 (+52%)
Total Homicides: 792 (+53%
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Old April 10, 2021, 08:40 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Where does the 80% rule currently in use end up? If I'm selling 80% finished lowers and a new rule makes them the same as an actual firearm, I'm going to be really tempted to sell 75% finished lowers. They can reset the legal limit, and I can offer another product that complies, on and on until the limit becomes 0%. Is that what we want? is that something we can afford to accept???
I agree. That's the point I was trying to make in posts #30 and 31. Once we allow them to define non-firearms of some arbitrary percentage of incompletion as firearms, we are on that proverbial slippery slope. Where will it end? Will we reach a point at which possession of a block of steel and a milling machine is construed by the BATFE as "constructive possession" of a firearm?
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Old April 10, 2021, 09:10 AM   #36
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This may be a distinction without a difference but they don’t have to call 80% or what ever percentage a firearm . They just need to regulate or restrict it’s sale . I’m having a hard time off the top of my head but there must be all kinds of items the government has restrictions of sale on that are not firearms . Likely not apples to apples but meds are highly controlled . I’m sure there’s a clever way to add restrictions to a none firearm item . Heck it might even be easier because they are not firearms , in fact that might be how they should attack it .
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Last edited by Metal god; April 10, 2021 at 11:05 AM.
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Old April 10, 2021, 09:55 AM   #37
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If they require all the same paperwork then they are pointless. The whole point of them is to avoid them being traceable. Not from law enforcement for crime searched but so the government can’t track it down to take it.

That gets into would be just turn them in if made illegal. That has been discussed a million times here though.
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Old April 10, 2021, 10:06 AM   #38
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With data like this, why go after rifles?

Consider the threat to a real important wealthy person surrounded by security carrying PCC SBR’s under a suit jacket wearing body armor.

Handguns while relevant in crime, don’t represent much threat to VIP’s relatively speaking. Rifles do.....to the point that people who regularly make decisions to ruin people’s lives financially by shifting jobs away from a location, closing factories, lower healthcare coverage, creating plans to fire employees as a cost cutting measure,etc....they are pushing Joe’s buttons.
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Old April 10, 2021, 01:34 PM   #39
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Likely not apples to apples but meds are highly controlled .
Yes, they are. However, medicines are finished products. We made asprin in high school chemistry class. The raw materials are not controlled the way medicines are.

Virtually every household in the nation contains materials that, if put together in just the right way, could make explosives. Yet these products are sold off the shelf in every grocery store without any restrictions, background checks, license requirements etc at all.

It should not be about what some inanimate object is, or isn't, it should only be about what people DO with it.

Unfortunately, too many people in authority think otherwise, and have for way too long. The line of thinking that things are evil dates back to at least the Middle Ages, where something that caused harm was "possesed by Satan" and therefore evil. Said something was also almost invariably surrendered to the Crown or the Church's local agents, "for public good" which went a long way to bolstering the power and profit of those groups at the expense of the people who's property was being taken.

Note how many things done today still follow that basic principle...
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Old April 10, 2021, 07:43 PM   #40
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I’ll bet if you asked one of us and a liberal, you would get 2 polar opposite meaning for this phrase. A liberal believes this means stop the practice of ordering AR15 parts kits online and stop building mass quantities of untraceable ghost guns that must be the cause of all these shootings.

We hear, change the 80% rule to something like 75% rule with no impact to AR15 building, except as related to using 80% lowers as a starting point which is relatively rare case anyways.
Not only that but the news media is (ignorantly or intentionally?) confusing the issue.

A friend of mine just asked me about a news piece she watched this week. She's a gun owner, but not up on the technical stuff and was legitimately confused. From her description, the news talked about "Ghost Guns" but showed a demonstration of someone attaching an AR15 upper to a lower and clicking the two pins. She asked me "It's not quite that simple is it?". Obviously, they completely glossed over (ignored) the part about the lower needing drilling, threading, other machining as well as the special tools required to do so. They didn't even show the installation of the internal trigger parts. (I actually suspect they were using a standard serialized commercial manufactured and fully assembled lower that was purchased through an FFL)
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Old April 10, 2021, 10:46 PM   #41
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Mr. Biden started politics in 1973 and he has yet to even try telling the truth. In1988 this came in to focus when he plagairized three people and then lied about his college ranking and degree. He claimed 3 but only had gotten one
His big mistake was challenging a reporter about his IQ. The reporter, unlike those today checked the record consequently good Ole Joe was more or less forced to back out of democrat primary. He is not smart and he is indeed not trustworthy.
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Old April 12, 2021, 07:07 PM   #42
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I guess one question is - Why? I may disagree with Biden on almost everything, but you don't become President by being dumb. So, why is he attacking the Second Amendment?
Because it is popular with his base. He got elected in part because of his stance on guns.

Just as republicans cater to their base so to do democratic politicians.
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Old April 12, 2021, 10:11 PM   #43
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Just as republicans cater to their base so to do democratic politicians.
In general I agree but it seems the term pandering to there base or the like is over used IMHO . I heard the left constantly say it about Trump . Most of the time what he was doing was fulfilling campaign promises . If it's what you believe and told everyone you are going to do , is it really trying to satisfy your base ? Joe's been anti gun for as long as I can remember and said he's coming after the guns , kinda tough to say he's pandering to anyone when he's been saying it from the start .
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Old April 13, 2021, 02:57 AM   #44
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He got elected in part because of his stance on guns.
There's still a small, vocal movement who wants to bring prohibition of alcohol back. They claimed George W. Bush's victory in 2000 was a vindication for their cause.

Gun control advocates always claim that when a candidate they supported wins, but I really doubt it. There were a number of larger issues at play in the election, the largest being a desire to get rid of the incumbent President.

Gun control is usually a symbolic thing that politicians fall back on when the rest of their agenda isn't doing so well.
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Old April 13, 2021, 05:10 AM   #45
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A convicted criminal can not buy a gun, of any type, from a dealer! So when a felon is arrested, and found in possession of a fully-loaded pistol.

The perusal of the serial # places it as coming from the legal owner prior to it being stolen. How do you stop the criminal from possessing this pistol?
YOU CAN NOT! So what stupid new law, placed on the books will affect a convicted felon? It won't! So an old law, on the books might. Three strikes and he/she will be incarcerated for life.

But that takes a long time.
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