Curious. Anyone know what this is? - Page 3

Bill DeShivs · November 17, 2018, 03:01 PM

There are MILLIONS of kids who can cobble some sort of firearm.
There are many thousands of adults with skill, machinery, and good taste who could build a single shot pistol.

briandg · November 18, 2018, 11:52 AM

Not trying to argue with you. I know that many people in america could put a gun together with nothing but the internet and a hardware store, and black powder from walmart. Well, maybe forty years ago... Thousands of people could a cut out and make a single shot.

When we get to the point of making a good seer, a good salt blue, a good finish on the steel, a sweetly tapered ten inch barrel, that's reached the point where only people like you with real equipment and real skills can do it. The guy even had to machine his pins and the holes to fit them.

I can't even guess how much time it would have taken.

Not meaning any offense, but you, an expert cutler, could you have designed this weird thing and then assembled that receiver with only the tools that you currently have in your shop? A barrel blank is just assumed.

That receiver is a really complicated thing.

I think that almost any competent machinist, even a very good garage mechanic could use off the counter bench tools and billet steel to make one of the NEF single shots.

My dad took a maple plank and parts and made a kentucky rifle. those parts were so simple that anyone with some equipment could have made them It would take some work assembling it to wood that had to be cut to fit them. a hand made black powder gun isn't hard, like I said, I made one.

Bill DeShivs · November 18, 2018, 03:06 PM

I could.
But I would design a much more conventional gun.
That said, I'm not a glutton for punishment. I'm too lazy to build a gun.

briandg · November 18, 2018, 06:57 PM

I personally have no idea what the heck it is. The only thing that remotely sounds reasonable is the competitive free pistol. But that begs the question, how well would a home made pistol shoot? It surely wouldn't have been worth the time and effort, a hammerli or other free pistol at that time wasn't prohibitively expensive. Not any more than a top grade rifle.

The hammer is also a curiosity. I can't imagine that a hammer swinging would be conducive to accuracy on the level that competitors want.

It just strikes me as a prototype for possible sale, or some dude really, seriously wanted bragging rights.

tallball · November 19, 2018, 05:55 AM

FWIW, I am not very observant and would make a lousy detective. But no one else has mentioned that the final number in the stamp one the bottom of the grip is farther removed than the other numbers. It kind of looks like 194 4. This makes me suspect it's not a date.

Here is a random idea off the top of my head: a target pistol for a competition team from a small obscure country that preferred to make their own pistols?

Double Naught Spy · November 19, 2018, 09:20 AM

Quote:

I personally have no idea what the heck it is. The only thing that remotely sounds reasonable is the competitive free pistol. But that begs the question, how well would a home made pistol shoot?

Judging by the skill reflected by the pistol, such a gun could shoot exceptionally well.

Quote:

It surely wouldn't have been worth the time and effort, a hammerli or other free pistol at that time wasn't prohibitively expensive. Not any more than a top grade rifle.

What you are expressing is a personal opinion. Whether or not it would be worth the time or effort is a matter for the craftsman and/or the client and their personal opinions. For some, it is worth more to have a unique, one of a kind item than to have something commercially produced.

I don't know why people have $400k handmade custom double rifles either. They aren't cost effective. There are much less expensive versions that do the exact same thing, yet people buy them. Heck, I don't even think the $75K versions are worthwhile, but that is my personal opinion.

briandg · November 19, 2018, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Judging by the skill reflected by the pistol, such a gun could shoot exceptionally well.

Could, but probably not. If you examine the competitive free pistols you will see that there is no comparison between them. The martini or other solid breach block actions are going to produce unparalleled accuracy. The firing mechanism with spring operated striker has a lock time that is far advanced of a sear and hammer design. If you look at olympic grade free pistols, you will see that many competitors don't even use a traditional trigger, they use a pin to make finger contact far more precise. The grip design isn't conducive to consistent hold, or a comfortable hold.

If he built it as a trophy, to show off his skills, and maybe to compete, that's one thing. He succeeded. If he built it as a possible design for manufacture, he maybe succeeded.

If he built it as a replacement for a factory gun, intending to have the most accurate pistol possible without spending the money, he failed, the gun will not be more accurate than the swiss or other thousand dollar competitive guns. the gun isn't going to help him in competition if he is competing against top line shooters with top line equipment.

So, I believe, as I said, that he built this thing out of pride, because the effort made to build it would have been enormous.

If he built it for practical use, to compete in a game that involves groups measured in the 1/16th" range, spending the money was the best idea.

If I had the money, as you said, I'd have a purdey, but I wouldn't have bought it for competition, and I surely wouldn't have tried to make one from bar stock and parts.

Buying this one, for me, would be all about the wonderful example of what a gunmaker could do.

Lining up all of the screws on an action is wonderful to see. It's not hard to do, though. Make the screws with longer heads, install all of the screws and mark them all with parallel lines. Cut the slots to that they will all line up when installed. Then file the screws down so that they will fit flush to the action. A wonderful bonus for the appearance of the gun that took an extra hour or so to accomplish.

Bill DeShivs · November 19, 2018, 03:04 PM

The reason the serial number looks as it does, is because it's hand stamped-one number at a time.

Henneman · November 28, 2018, 06:01 PM

Given how unique this is, and no other answers forthcoming, I would speculate that this could be a the "final exam" product of either a novice gunsmith or machinist. It may have produced as part of a formal trade school or apprenticeship program at a firearms manufacturer. It appears much care was lavished in the production, more so than even a prototype would warrant. If "1944" had any relation to the year of production, then Switzerland, Sweden or possibly Spain might be the source seeing as they weren't consumed by other weapon production in WWII.

If it has another meaning then there would be more post war possibilities, i.e. Belgium, Italy, France or even Germany. I would also guess that if the socket head cap screws were subjected to a thread gauge they would be metric. The reasons for my thoughts are that the European countries have traditionally more comprehensive apprenticeship programs and also more bespoke type manufacturers, i.e. Darne, Merkel, AYA, Holland and Holland, where the craftsmanship evidenced by this piece would be applicable.

Metalboy · November 28, 2018, 08:06 PM

I can tell you for sure,that any well trained machinist/tool & die maker can/could make that gun in any European country.In the late '50s when I was an apprentice, in Hungary,we had lots of precision german machines.We made some real jewels just for fun,in our lunch/spare time....
Fore examples we used swiss ball bearing housing for razors,because of the fine material.
Among others we also made copys of Browning Hi Power....so we had experience too.
How much it wort?
Let me put this way.Anybody can make $$$$$$$s,but not guns like that.
I'm one of those,who had to make gages for the US Army,within 17 millionths of an inch.(not in above country,but in the good ol'USA.mind you.)

Skans · November 29, 2018, 09:04 AM

Quote:

So, I believe, as I said, that he built this thing out of pride, because the effort made to build it would have been enormous.

Quote:

In the late '50s when I was an apprentice, in Hungary,we had lots of precision german machines.We made some real jewels just for fun,in our lunch/spare time....

So, here's my question: If a very skilled individual spent a lot of time and effort making this pistol, wouldn't he put his name, initials, crest or some other identifying mark somewhere on the pistol, other than "1944"? Even if I were the humble type, I would stamp or engrave my name or at least initials on the inside of the grip.

Metalboy · November 29, 2018, 10:34 AM

I can answer your question about Hungary at the time.
That would be an absolute NO-NO.
One would risk his/her own life for having/making a firearm.The time was behind the iron curtain.Only factories could do that strictly officially such as FEG,for the government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skans

So, here's my question: If a very skilled individual spent a lot of time and effort making this pistol, wouldn't he put his name, initials, crest or some other identifying mark somewhere on the pistol, other than "1944"? Even if I were the humble type, I would stamp or engrave my name or at least initials on the inside of the grip.

In WW2 the Russian army executed lots of people,for being knowledgeable about something. (Katyn masscre.)

briandg · November 29, 2018, 01:44 PM

Quote:

But when logic and emotions come into opposition with each other, the human being will usually take the emotional side. Real education is the key. When someone has education based in TRUTH their emotions are guided by those truths.

Yep, so did the nazis. If an asset is about to turn to the other side, destroy it.

Someone said that it was too well finished for a prototype for presentation.

If I had invented the contender, and I needed backing, that thing would have had deep royal blue and even a little engraving. Send the best you can do to the men with the money, get the money based on your design and your skill at creating the thing.

There's plenty of time to sell ugly production units when the brand is established.

Metalboy · November 29, 2018, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briandg

Yep, so did the nazis. If an asset is about to turn to the other side, destroy it.

Someone said that it was too well finished for a prototype for presentation.

If I had invented the contender, and I needed backing, that thing would have had deep royal blue and even a little engraving. Send the best you can do to the men with the money, get the money based on your design and your skill at creating the thing.

There's plenty of time to sell ugly production units when the brand is established.

Walther PPKs were very nicely finished a hundred years ago,in large #s.

ammo.crafter · November 29, 2018, 01:57 PM

A .22 caliber pellet pistol.

briandg · November 29, 2018, 03:15 PM

he clearly stated that it was a rimfire?

Bill DeShivs · November 29, 2018, 04:23 PM

A reason there are no markings other than the number could very well be that:
Most people don't know gun laws. They may actually think there is something illegal about making a pistol. Everyone thinks serial numbers are on guns. So- You have a gun with a serial number. Those same people would not want to be associated legally with that gun.

Henneman · November 29, 2018, 06:47 PM

I did not state that the finish was too fine for prototype, but that the whole product appeared too elaborate for a design that was destined for production. My meaning was that,for a single shot 22 it would take scores of hours to produce this. Examine the radiused multi stepped barrel and receiver. The metal joints too. This is the type of workmanship found on finely produced double guns. Was there ever a mass market for this type of gun?

My central point was that I am doubtful that the mystery will be solved as whomever made it did not do so for a primarily economic purpose. It was probably done to display their proficiency,or in the pursuit of a hobby.

In summary, if it works, I would pay $500 and then do a camo coating.

November 17, 2018, 03:01 PM	#51
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	There are MILLIONS of kids who can cobble some sort of firearm. There are many thousands of adults with skill, machinery, and good taste who could build a single shot pistol. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 18, 2018, 11:52 AM	#52
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Not trying to argue with you. I know that many people in america could put a gun together with nothing but the internet and a hardware store, and black powder from walmart. Well, maybe forty years ago... Thousands of people could a cut out and make a single shot. When we get to the point of making a good seer, a good salt blue, a good finish on the steel, a sweetly tapered ten inch barrel, that's reached the point where only people like you with real equipment and real skills can do it. The guy even had to machine his pins and the holes to fit them. I can't even guess how much time it would have taken. Not meaning any offense, but you, an expert cutler, could you have designed this weird thing and then assembled that receiver with only the tools that you currently have in your shop? A barrel blank is just assumed. That receiver is a really complicated thing. I think that almost any competent machinist, even a very good garage mechanic could use off the counter bench tools and billet steel to make one of the NEF single shots. My dad took a maple plank and parts and made a kentucky rifle. those parts were so simple that anyone with some equipment could have made them It would take some work assembling it to wood that had to be cut to fit them. a hand made black powder gun isn't hard, like I said, I made one. __________________ None.

November 18, 2018, 03:06 PM	#53
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I could. But I would design a much more conventional gun. That said, I'm not a glutton for punishment. I'm too lazy to build a gun. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 18, 2018, 06:57 PM	#54
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I personally have no idea what the heck it is. The only thing that remotely sounds reasonable is the competitive free pistol. But that begs the question, how well would a home made pistol shoot? It surely wouldn't have been worth the time and effort, a hammerli or other free pistol at that time wasn't prohibitively expensive. Not any more than a top grade rifle. The hammer is also a curiosity. I can't imagine that a hammer swinging would be conducive to accuracy on the level that competitors want. It just strikes me as a prototype for possible sale, or some dude really, seriously wanted bragging rights. __________________ None.

November 19, 2018, 03:04 PM	#58
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	The reason the serial number looks as it does, is because it's hand stamped-one number at a time. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 19, 2018, 05:55 AM	#55
tallball Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2014 Posts: 2,444	FWIW, I am not very observant and would make a lousy detective. But no one else has mentioned that the final number in the stamp one the bottom of the grip is farther removed than the other numbers. It kind of looks like 194 4. This makes me suspect it's not a date. Here is a random idea off the top of my head: a target pistol for a competition team from a small obscure country that preferred to make their own pistols?

November 28, 2018, 06:01 PM	#59
Henneman Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Location: Northwest Wisconsin Posts: 20	Given how unique this is, and no other answers forthcoming, I would speculate that this could be a the "final exam" product of either a novice gunsmith or machinist. It may have produced as part of a formal trade school or apprenticeship program at a firearms manufacturer. It appears much care was lavished in the production, more so than even a prototype would warrant. If "1944" had any relation to the year of production, then Switzerland, Sweden or possibly Spain might be the source seeing as they weren't consumed by other weapon production in WWII. If it has another meaning then there would be more post war possibilities, i.e. Belgium, Italy, France or even Germany. I would also guess that if the socket head cap screws were subjected to a thread gauge they would be metric. The reasons for my thoughts are that the European countries have traditionally more comprehensive apprenticeship programs and also more bespoke type manufacturers, i.e. Darne, Merkel, AYA, Holland and Holland, where the craftsmanship evidenced by this piece would be applicable.

November 28, 2018, 08:06 PM	#60
Metalboy Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2014 Location: SE. Wisconsin. Posts: 327	I can tell you for sure,that any well trained machinist/tool & die maker can/could make that gun in any European country.In the late '50s when I was an apprentice, in Hungary,we had lots of precision german machines.We made some real jewels just for fun,in our lunch/spare time.... Fore examples we used swiss ball bearing housing for razors,because of the fine material. Among others we also made copys of Browning Hi Power....so we had experience too. How much it wort? Let me put this way.Anybody can make $$$$$$$s,but not guns like that. I'm one of those,who had to make gages for the US Army,within 17 millionths of an inch.(not in above country,but in the good ol'USA.mind you.) __________________ Hungarian by birth, American by choice. I don't collect guns.They just accumulate themselves.

November 29, 2018, 01:57 PM	#65
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	What is it A .22 caliber pellet pistol. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

November 29, 2018, 03:15 PM	#66
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	he clearly stated that it was a rimfire? __________________ None.

November 29, 2018, 04:23 PM	#67
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	A reason there are no markings other than the number could very well be that: Most people don't know gun laws. They may actually think there is something illegal about making a pistol. Everyone thinks serial numbers are on guns. So- You have a gun with a serial number. Those same people would not want to be associated legally with that gun. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 29, 2018, 06:47 PM	#68
Henneman Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Location: Northwest Wisconsin Posts: 20	I did not state that the finish was too fine for prototype, but that the whole product appeared too elaborate for a design that was destined for production. My meaning was that,for a single shot 22 it would take scores of hours to produce this. Examine the radiused multi stepped barrel and receiver. The metal joints too. This is the type of workmanship found on finely produced double guns. Was there ever a mass market for this type of gun? My central point was that I am doubtful that the mystery will be solved as whomever made it did not do so for a primarily economic purpose. It was probably done to display their proficiency,or in the pursuit of a hobby. In summary, if it works, I would pay $500 and then do a camo coating.