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Old September 25, 2021, 08:16 AM   #1
FoghornLeghorn
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Anybody have both S&W M25-2 and Redhawk 45 Colt/45 ACP?

I own an M25-2 and am contemplating buying a Redhawk 45 Colt/45 ACP.

Can they use the same moon clips?
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Old September 25, 2021, 09:57 AM   #2
lamarw
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The .45 Colt round is a typical revolver round and with its rim does not require a moon clip. Maybe, I am missing something here where the revolver shoots both calibers. I have a S&W 25-2 for .45 ACP and it requires moon clips. I have a S&W 25-13 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt and requires no moon clip. ??
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Old September 25, 2021, 10:27 AM   #3
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Ruger Redhawk clips are proprietary and fit Redhawks only. Not the same as the Smith or standard military pattern full moon clips

https://www.gunclips.net/rurefumocl.html
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Old September 25, 2021, 10:46 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamarw View Post
The .45 Colt round is a typical revolver round and with its rim does not require a moon clip. Maybe, I am missing something here where the revolver shoots both calibers. I have a S&W 25-2 for .45 ACP and it requires moon clips. I have a S&W 25-13 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt and requires no moon clip. ??
Ruger makes a Redhawk that shoots 45 LC like any other revolver (rimmed) cartridge. But it also will shoot 45 ACP with moon clips.

Apparently, as posted, Ruger's moon clips only fit Ruger.
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Old September 25, 2021, 10:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Blaster View Post
Ruger Redhawk clips are proprietary and fit Redhawks only. Not the same as the Smith or standard military pattern full moon clips

https://www.gunclips.net/rurefumocl.html
Thanks.
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Old September 25, 2021, 11:38 AM   #6
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If you want to mostly shoot .45 ACP then go with the 25, the long jump in the chamber saps velocity from the .45 ACP in the Redhawk. Accuracy with factory FMJ also not good. If you reload tho, you can get decent performance, I do 5.5gr of Bullseye under a 225 gr lead bullet and roll crimp for .45 ACP.
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Old September 25, 2021, 03:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
I do 5.5gr of Bullseye under a 225 gr lead bullet and roll crimp for .45 ACP.
Ruff. If that's what it takes then I understand (and agree with) your advice to get the S&W 25-2.

I've been fascinated with the Ruger Redhawk .45 ACP/.45 Colt and appreciate the posts here. I have no experience with the gun but maybe it's like the 'dancing bear', it's not that it dances well, it's that it can dance at all.
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Old September 26, 2021, 11:02 AM   #8
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Moon Clips

Full disclosure, I don't have a Redhawk, or a S&W model 25. What I do have is a Ruger Blackhawk .45Colt/.45acp, a Webley Mk VI converted to use ACP brass and experience with the S&W and Colt 1917 .45acp revolvers.

My Blackhawk has separate cylinders for .45 Colt and .45ACP. Clips cannot be used, due to the design of the gun.

My Webley uses clips. (S&W) Half Moon clips work, and the 2nrd clips I found at a gun show (no idea who made them) work. I have not yet found a full moon clip that works in my gun. The ones I tried were all too thick for MY gun, which was converted to use .45acp brass, and just barely. .45 Auto Rim brass will not work in my Webley, the rims are too thick!

Most revolvers made to shoot .45ACP have chambers like the semi auto pistol does, meaning that there is a ledge at the front of the chamber that stops the cartridge from going forward. The case headspaces on this ledge.

When this ledge is not present, the case has to headspace off something else. The clip serves that function in guns that don't have the ledge in their chambers.

When you have a .45ACP gun made with the chamber ledge (or shoulder if you prefer), you do not need clips to use the gun, but, you will want them with a DA revolver. In a regular DA revolver, without clips, the ACP round will headspace on the chamber ledge, and fire properly. But, it will not extract, because the there is nothing for the DA cylinder's extractor to push on. Fired cases must be poked out one at a time, which is exactly what happens shooting and SA revolver (where clips cannot be used). The SA gun has the ejector rod built on, the DA gun requires you to come up with a tool separate from the gun.

BUT, when you use clips, the DA gun's extractor pushes against the clip, allowing simultaneous extraction and ejection of the ACP cases as if they had rims. This is the primary function of the clip in most DA ACP revolvers.

MOST, not all.

If you have a gun made without the chamber ledge at the front of the ACP chamber, then you NEED clips to headspace the ammo for firing, as well as providing for simultaneous extraction.

Now, as I said, I don't have one of the dual caliber Redhawks, so this is my best guess, but its an educated guess, based on my experience with .45 Colt and .45ACP revolvers.

The Redhawk cannot have the ledge in the chamber to headspace .45ACP ammo. If it did, then .45 Colt ammo would not chamber. SO the gun must use clips to fire .45acp ammo.

By the case drawing specs, the .45 Colt case body is 0.007" wider (its full length) than the .45ACP case is at tis widest point. (.480" vs. .473")

So, what happens shooting ACP in the Colt spec chamber is that the clip supports the ACP case, holding it in the proper position to be fired, which is otherwise literally "hanging in space" in the larger .45 Colt chamber.

Others say the Redhawk only takes Ruger clips. They are probably right. What clips will work depends on how much space is cut in the gun for them to fit into. S&W's use the space designed in the 1917 revolvers, and this also allows the use of Auto Rim brass in those gun.

Ruger is under no compulsion to use that same dimension, and likely does not. If they designed their gun with the space even a few thousandths "thinner" then standard (S&W) clips would not work, and I think its likely that's what they did.

Quote:
..the long jump in the chamber saps velocity from the .45 ACP in the Redhawk.
I'm curious, what do you base this statement on?? I have never heard it before, in reference to the Redhawk, or any other revolver shooting .45ACP.

I have heard people say that the long bullet jump from the shorter case reduces accuracy (not velocity), and that may be true in some guns, but I have not found it to be the case with mine.

I do think it likely that ACP ammo will be less accurate than .45 Colt fired from a dual caliber Redhawk, but not because of the longer bullet jump, but because the acp case is not supported by the larger Colt chamber, only by the clip at the back end.

For a system that lets you shoot ACP ammo from your .45 Colt Redhawk, it does work. As to the optimal system for shooting .45ACP from a revolver, I don't think it is.
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Old September 26, 2021, 07:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
..the long jump in the chamber saps velocity from the .45 ACP in the Redhawk.
I was discussing this with a friend, and he was insistent that the velocity loss in the Redhawk was a real thing.

on further reflection, I came to the conclusion that velocity loss in .45acp ammo fired in the Redhawk .45 Colt chamber was most likely due to the fact that the chamber is oversize for the acp round, so gas blowing by the bullet would begin as soon as the bullet leaves the case. The longer bullet jump to reach the forcing cone and barrel where it will tightly seal adds to the situation, I don't think its the direct, or major cause. I now think the .45Colt chamber being "too wide" is the reason more than the other factors.
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Old September 27, 2021, 08:39 AM   #10
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Same thing happens with 45 Colt in 45/410 chambered cylinders, 44 AMP.
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Old September 27, 2021, 11:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Same thing happens with 45 Colt in 45/410 chambered cylinders, 44 AMP.
The long bullet jump is there, due to the .410 case length, but the .45 Colt is not being fired in an oversize diameter chamber, the .410 shell is.

No one seems to care much about velocity loss or accuracy loss firing .410 shells in a .45 Colt chamber. Wonder why that is?
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Old September 27, 2021, 03:12 PM   #12
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I bet those clips are pretty thin for the Ruger.
If my main desire was 45ACP I would go with a Smith.
The empty cases fall out of my 625 even without a full or half moon clip.
Guns shoots great.
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Old September 27, 2021, 11:43 PM   #13
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IMhO any N frame S&W is a joy.
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Old September 28, 2021, 08:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
The long bullet jump is there, due to the .410 case length, but the .45 Colt is not being fired in an oversize diameter chamber, the .410 shell is.

No one seems to care much about velocity loss or accuracy loss firing .410 shells in a .45 Colt chamber. Wonder why that is?
Some of these 45/410 revolvers have 0.462" or bigger cylinder throats and that ain't normal. Poor gas seal = dismal 45 Colt velocities.
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Old September 28, 2021, 12:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Some of these 45/410 revolvers have 0.462" or bigger cylinder throats and that ain't normal. Poor gas seal = dismal 45 Colt velocities.
I can see where that would be the case.

But, don't confuse a flaw or failure to properly make the item to be a flaw in the design concept.

I don't (and won't) have any .45/.410 revolvers, and personally find the idea to be kinda dumb. It's myth, marketing hype and novelty that sells those guns.

It was successful, the sold a bunch when the idea was still new and fresh, even enough to justify creation of .410 "personal defense loads" as factory ammo.

Where's that stuff rank in sales these days?? I don't know, but its not up near the top like it once was...

I have a .45/.410 pistol and I've found it very good and very useful when a .410 pistol is useful. Its a T/C Contender (10"). Its long, but not particularly heavy, carries pretty well in a holster, and is an excellent pest gun is less bulky than a revolver (though longer) and the Contender has a huge range of calibers available with just an easy barrel swap.

I also have .45Colt/.45ACP revolver. Ruger Blackhawk convertible. Separate cylinders for each, and they're great. I almost never shoot ACP in it, the .45 Colt does everything a .45ACP can do, and much, much more.

I handload, so cost of factory ammo doesn't matter to me. I'm sure the Ruger Redhawk shooting both out of the same cylinder does work. For some I imagine it will be a useful convenience. But there's drawbacks to the idea,

You need clips for the acp round, and you need RUGER clips for their pistol.
And, I expect some degree of inferior performance from the ACP rounds compared to what you get from the ACP when fired in a chamber made for the ACP round.

Here's a question, I didn't see anyone ask, yet. WILL the dual Redhawk also work with .45 Auto Rim ammo??? Some .45ACP revolvers will, some will not. I very much doubt the Redhawk will work with AR brass. But, I don't know, so I'm asking...

Remember that the DA .45ACP revolver was designed as a WWI war emergency stopgap. The 1917 Colts and S&W revolvers, and the half moon clips got made for, bought and used by the military because with the expansion of the services due to WWI there weren't enough 1911 pistols in the system to arm everyone who needed one. Those guns were made with a "generous" amount of space for the clip to fit in.

In the 20s Peters Cartridge Co came out with the .45 Auto Rim, an ACP case with a very thick rim to fit in the 1917 revolvers and work without clips. The .45AR works in guns with the same amount of space as the 1917s have, but won't work in .45ACP guns that don't. That's something I didn't realize until I got a .45acp revolver that would work with clips but wouldn't work with AR brass.
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Old September 28, 2021, 05:38 PM   #16
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I was real interested in the 45 LC/ACP Redhawk when it first came out and read every review I could find on them. I'm almost certain it will not work with Auto Rim because Rugers proprietary moon clips are thinner and hence the headspace is insufficient to clear the Auto Rim's rim (say that three times fast) which at 0.827 is a real fatty. I cannot, at the moment, find the review that mentioned this.

It would work with 45 Cowboy Special, which is essentially the ACP case with the LC rim; though there would be no practical advantage to using it.
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