6mm Creedmore merits

[TruthTellers]

I ask this question because while looking at the specs of the 6.5mm Creedmore American rifle, I saw that Ruger is making a 6mm Creedmore too. It got me to thinking: what's the benefit, the thing it does better that .243 Winchester doesn't do? The .243 is a flat shooting cartridge as I'm sure 6mm Creed is, but the .243 has been around longer, is better established. There seems to be no point in getting into 6mm Creedmoor at all.

The 6.5mm Creedmore I see having a purpose; it fits right between .223 and .308 in bullet diameter and weights. It's a long range cartridge, longer than .308, but has less recoil. It's more powerful than .223, but not as powerful as .308, so the 6.5 makes sense.

Somebody tell me that the 6mm has a leg to stand on because I'm not seeing it.

[jmr40]

Factory rifles and barrels built to take advantage of longer, heavier 6mm bullets and a case designed to shoot those heavier bullets without taking up powder capacity. Which is exactly the same advantage 6.5 Creedmoor has over 260.

I you go to the trouble to custom build a 243 or 260 and handload your ammo they can do the same thing as 6mm and 6.5 Creedmoor. But the Creedmoor's offer the option of buying that capability off the shelf with both rifles and ammo.

If you're shooting bullets under 100 gr in 243 or under about 120 gr in 260 then the Creedmoor's don't offer any advantages. But people are finding that heavier bullets in both calibers can do some amazing things.

[eastbank]

the twist in the barrel will be the thing to watch, the 6mm with good heavy bullets is the only long range option. eastbank.

[Dranrab]

Spell it Creedmoor. It helps when people use the search function.

[eastbank]

trumps president, no moor PC grammer police please. eastbank.

[roashooter]

Spell it Creedmoor. It helps when people use the search function.

some people do not know how to use a search function....or choose not to

[Dranrab]

I did that not to police grammar, but rather to make a suggestion as to how to make the conversation more useful in the future. I can't tell you how many times I have typed Creedmoor into some form of a search engine. I like to think I am not alone in this. The OP can take it as a constructive suggestion or be offended. His choice.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

Somebody tell me that the 6mm has a leg to stand on because I'm not seeing it.

It has very good legs, if you follow the Precision Rifle circuit (PR) you'd know it's a very popular cartridge. The ability to shoot high BC bullets around 3100 FPS with less recoil than the 6.5's makes it attractive for PR competuitions. Even though the 6mm doesn't have as high of BC's as the 6.5mm bullets, its higher MV allows the bullets to get past 1000 yards with less drop and wind adjustment than the 6.5mm cartridges it's competeing against.

This article was written before the 6.5 CM hit the scene but it explains why GA Precision (GAP) went to 6mm bullets early on. In fact I think GAP was one of the first to offer the 6mm CM and have been selling factory Hornady 6mm CM brass for the last few years. Here is a quote from the article.

.243 Win For Tactical Comps
We asked GA Precision’s George Gardner why he chose .243 Winchester for his Tactical Comp Gun. He replied, “Why would I run anything else? Think about it. I’m sending a .585 BC 115 at 3150 fps–that’ll shoot inside the 6XC and .260 Rem with ease. I’m pretty sure I have found the Holy Grail of Comp Rifles. There are no brass issues like you can get forming .260 brass. I don’t have to worry about doughnuts, reaming necks–none of that. And the choice in brass is great too–run Lapua if you want max reloads and great accuracy. Run Winchester if you’re on a budget, and so you won’t cry if you lose some cases in a match. I can get 10-round mags, and feeding is 100% reliable, since the case is identical to a .308 except for the neck. Accuracy-wise, I don’t think I’m giving up anything to the .260 Rem or the 6XC.” We then asked George if he’d considered using a .243 AI instead: “Yeah, the cases look cool with that 40° shoulder, but I think the standard .243 feeds a little better. And I don’t think I really need the extra performance of an improved case. Run the ballistics for my load–115 moly DTAC at 3150 fps. You’ve got less windage than a 2950 fps 6.5-284, with cheaper brass, cheaper dies, cheaper bullets, and less recoil.”

[MarkCO]

The merit of the 6mm CM is escaping the "deer cartridge" label tagged on the .243Win. It does not do anything better as a cartridge.

Like someone else said, the twist is what is important. Ruger was the only one making a factory gun with the proper twist, and now that they dropped it in favor of the 6CM, they have added to that label. There are several top shooters that have won with .243Win. But most are on to something with more sex appeal. Shooter Shame (similar to mid-life crisis) drives them into the arms of the new marketing hottness.

[Mobuck]

"Factory rifles and barrels built to take advantage of longer, heavier 6mm bullets "
This is more of an equipment issue than a cartridge innovation.

"and a case designed to shoot those heavier bullets without taking up powder capacity. Which is exactly the same advantage 6.5 Creedmoor has over 260."

An "improved" profile and slightly longer neck doesn't seem to be all that much of "an innovative design".

[1stmar]

Any difference in barrel life between 243 and 6cm?

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by 1stmar

Any difference in barrel life between 243 and 6cm?

That really depends on too many factors. However, the .243 has a larger case capacity so you could potentially load it to faster velocities than the 6mm CM causing the barrel to wear faster. I don't think it'll matter a whole lot in the end.

[fourbore]

The 6.5mm Creedmore I see having a purpose; it fits right between .223 and .308 in bullet diameter and weights. It's a long range cartridge, longer than .308, but has less recoil. It's more powerful than .223, but not as powerful as .308, so the 6.5 makes sense.

For hunting, I feel the 243 is just about between the 223 and 308. Without fast twisting, more/less in even numbers 50,100,150 grain bullets. Varmint, deer, moose.

"Factory rifles and barrels built to take advantage of longer, heavier 6mm bullets "
This is more of an equipment issue than a cartridge innovation.

This made me think. I agree with both, like a politican. On one hand, it is too bad to see cartridges proliferate for little reason. On the other there is an advantage to guns and cartridges with a clear purpose. I see a 223 rifle I dont have any idea what is under the hood, I have to go begging for specs. A newbie is at the mercy of internet advise or just gets what he gets. If I buy a 222 or 204 rifle, I got a real good idea what is going on with that gun. And, I dont need to be a season veteran to understand the research.

I am a believer in heavy for caliber bullets, to a point. That is why I argue in favor of the 9.3x62 over the 35 whelen. BUT!!! I dont need 500 grain bullets with a 1:9 twist because some one on the web is blurbing gibberish about his 1000 yard 9.3. Call it a 9.3 creedmore and branch out on your own.

I prefer the 6.5x55 over say a 260. I know the difference. Nothing to do with 1000 yard shooting. They key is I know the guns and ammo going in. I am fine with the sweed and 260 being replaced with the creedmore, for long range.

A 243 Ruger American 1:10 twist and RPR in 6mm Creed has 7.7 twist. No confusion over what is what. Each gun is optimized for a different task. On balance this seems better to me.

[oldscot3]

I'm not a competitive shooter so I actually know little about "match class" cartridges from personal experience unless they happen to hit a "dual purpose" category like the 6.5 Creedmoor has. To me that's an important element. For hunting and casual shooting I would go with a 243 due to the cost and availability factor.

In that line of reasoning, in 6.5 caliber, there doesn't seem to be much logic in choosing 6.5 Swede over 6.5 Creedmoor unless you want to launch 160 grain roundnose projectiles. 6.5 Creemoor is now widely available, affordable, with new rifle choices seemly coming out daily. Perhaps 6mm Creedmoor may take the market in a similar fashion, but I doubt it. The 243 Winchester is way more popular than the good ole Swede ever was at least in America.

I was reading the results of a survey given to the top 100 competitors of the Precision Rifle Series. Their choice was...
#1 6.5x47 Lapua
#2 6mm Creedmoor
#3 6.5 Creedmoor
#4 6mm Lapua
The author also stated that these guys were very talented shooters who could probably win with just about any caliber, but nevertheless, these were their choices.

[MarkCO]

fourbore, the ONLY difference in the RPR .243Win and 6CM is the chamber dimensions. Both 1:7.7, with equal velocity ammo, both shoot the same groups with the same drops.

The Ruger American Predator in .243Win has a 1:9, which is appropriate. The 6CM in the RAP with a 1:7.7, won't shoot anything under 85 grain with good results and fouls pretty quick even with the 85 and 87 grain ammo.

[fourbore]

The that does blur the lines

Oh, if 243 is generally 1:9, that was just lazy on my part. I did not know. It might kind of illustrate the problem - at my expense.

[MarkCO]

.243s have been 1:10 to 1:14. I'd guess 1:10 is the most common now. Ruger twisted most of theirs faster than any manufacturer had in the past, then dumped the best one, the RPR in only 2 years time.

I have 5 .243s, from 1:7.7 to 1:12 and they are all different for sure, but 6mms do tend to be less finicky about twist and velocity (as it affects accuracy) than the other bore diameters I play with.

[TheFriendlyMarksman]

There was no point in making the 6.5 Creedmoor as the 260 Rem was already out, but you can't stop wildcatters from necking every available cartridge up, down, and sideways.

[oldscot3]

There was no point in making the 6.5 Creedmoor as the 260 Rem was already out,

I don't agree with this. Cartridges designed for short action rifles have to fit within a length of 2.8" give or take a small amount. If you take a relatively long sloping shoulder and give it a sharper angle, you've made the length it occupies shorter. That length can then be given to the case body or neck depending on what your goal is.

The 6.5 Creedmoor's design allows the most flexibility for seating long slender bullets of various weights from roughly 100 to over 140. If you are a competitive target shooter, that feature matters. Those guys are looking for every little thing where they can pick up an improvement to gain an edge.

The 260 is still a fine round, but the Creedmoor is better and that is largely why it replaced the 260 so quickly.

[bedlamite]

Originally Posted by oldscot3

I don't agree with this. Cartridges designed for short action rifles have to fit within a length of 2.8" give or take a small amount. If you take a relatively long sloping shoulder and give it a sharper angle, you've made the length it occupies shorter. That length can then be given to the case body or neck depending on what your goal is.

The 6.5 Creedmoor's design allows the most flexibility for seating long slender bullets of various weights from roughly 100 to over 140. If you are a competitive target shooter, that feature matters. Those guys are looking for every little thing where they can pick up an improvement to gain an edge.

The 260 is still a fine round, but the Creedmoor is better and that is largely why it replaced the 260 so quickly

Which is really funny, because I have absolutely no problems loading the 140gr Berger VLD to mag length in my 260.

[Txhillbilly]

But I bet you can't load the Berger's to the lands and remain magazine length. I can't do it with either of mine - 260 or 260 AI. I have no problem loading to the lands with my two 6.5 Creedmoor's and being well within magazine length limits.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

But I bet you can't load the Berger's to the lands and remain magazine length.

I couldn't in the .243 either. Luckily the Berger VLD bullets got the best accuracy at .130" jump. That made it easy to keep it a repeater.

[oldscot3]

Which is really funny, because I have absolutely no problems loading the 140gr Berger VLD to mag length in my 260.

I don't know anything about the rifle you're loading for, but I would say that's lucky for you. Perhaps your rifle is a custom. Others may have a different experience with their rifles chambered for 260.

6.5 Creedmoor owners, get a little more flexibility with a wider variety of bullets whether you think they need it not. Apparently a whole bunch of competitive and casual shooters are choosing to take advantage of it. Do some google research into what the top guys are winning with these days and I think you'll find the Creedmoor ahead of 260. Must be something there, they can't all be wrong.

BTW I believe the current world record for 10 shots is still a bit under 2 3/4". It was shot with a 6mm Dasher which I understand is a 6mm BR improved (short, sharp shoulder, lots of bullet out of the case). I wonder why on earth he felt like he needed that when there are so many 243s out there?

[MarkCO]

BTW I believe the current world record for 10 shots is still a bit under 2 3/4". It was shot with a 6mm Dasher which I understand is a 6mm BR improved (short, sharp shoulder, lots of bullet out of the case). I wonder why on earth he felt like he needed that when there are so many 243s out there?

It was kind of a group think of Dan Dowling and Al Ashton for the 22 Dasher, which they then necked up to 6mm. Small primer was one of the biggest pluses of the 6 Dasher. But light case neck tension on a short case was a plus as well.

FWIW, Al Ashton is still kicking about and is on the BOD of the Colorado Rifle Club. When I told him PRS guys were starting to use 6 Dasher, he was a little surprised, and happy. He and Dan did years ago what folks are reinventing.

[oldscot3]

As often happens, we're getting off the op.

There seems to be no point in getting into 6mm Creedmoor at all.

So, I would say, it sort of a thing for competition shooters like 6mmx47 Lapua, 6xc etc., but Ruger is offering it to the public at large. I wouldn't sell a good shooting 243 so I could buy one but I wouldn't close my mind to it either. It offers a slight improvement for the same reasons its 6.5 CM sibling does. If you need those slight advantages, take them, otherwise don't.

This whole thing kinda reminds me of drag and stock car racing. It used to be said, "what wins on the Sunday, sells on Monday". In the automotive world, it really was/is true that "racing improves the breed". I don't think it's a stretch to apply that to competitive shooting. Those guys are sharp innovators, and the rest of us benefit from what they share.