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April 9, 2013, 03:27 PM | #1 |
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Questions regarding classification of "Battle Rifles" turned DMR
This may sound like an odd question, but I was wondering of the term battle rifle can still be applied to firearms that are used in a Designated Marksmens role.
To add context to the question, I was wondering if the term would be applied to rifles such as the USMC' M39 EMR or the US Army's Mk14 EBR both of which are updated and accurized versions of the famous/infamous M14 rifle caliber service rifle that was issued to US troops in Vietnam, and more recently, to SOCOM and infantry units serving in the middle east. As I understand it, a battle rifle is a firearm that is typically chambered to fire a rifle caliber round, such as the 7.62x51 NATO or the 7.62x54R cartridge and similar. The HK G3, FN FAL, and the M14 all of which were standard issue infantry rifles for a number of nations in the past. As such, the way I interpret what a battle rifle is, is a firearm that fires a rifle caliber round but is used primarily for front line conflict, while a DMR is used mainly in a supportive role, providing precise shots where the standard issue AR or a traditional bolt action rifle is inefficient. Most DMR' however are simply accurized assault/battle rifles,G3 to G3-SG1, M14 toMk14/M39 EBR/EMR M16 to Mk 12 SPR, L85 to L86 LSW (Relieved of it's role as a SAW to take up the mantle of a DMR) respectively, among many others. What's interesting is that DMR' are not restricted to rifle caliber platforms, the Mk12 SPR which is used by SOCOM is a good example. I'm assuming that the terms are not applicable, but I'd rather get some clarification than simply assume it as such (we all know about what happens when you simply assume), since a DMR specifies the particular role the chosen firearm is designed to fulfill (You woudn't call a Mk12 an assault rifle for example, which are usually select fire if I'm not mistaken) So am I correct in my interpretations or have I erred in some places if not all? I've had some claim that it still applies while others have claimed it does not, I'd appreciate the help so that I can finally clear the waters so to speak on this subject. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and bearing with my long winded post. |
April 10, 2013, 03:58 PM | #2 |
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I have not been able to located hard data that I once had but I believe your assumption are correct. I do remember that the DM was a squad member responsible for engaging targets between 300 and 600 yards/meters. Standard squad members engaged close targets, DM engaged those a little further out. Shots beyond 500 or 600 yards were supposed to be the reserved for Scout/Sniper .The CMP and the Army had a program where the prospective DM was assisted in learning about shooting beyond 300 yards/meters using Highpower competitors [high masters and masters] as instructors. Because of the extended range the rifle had to be a bit more accurate and sometimes of different caliber. The M14, scoped and accurized by the Marksmanship unit was one of the first put into service. Later other dedicated rifles were introduced. The DM could use any rifle but his extra training in range estimation,wind effects,ballistics was what made the difference. Interesting question although I think the rifle to be secondary to the Designated Marksman training.
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April 11, 2013, 11:00 AM | #3 | ||
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Quote:
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Hmmmmm. What to do? I say don't sweat it, just say "rifle" or "carbine" and let the semanticians wreak havoc with the terminology.
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April 12, 2013, 02:08 AM | #4 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by Regolith; April 12, 2013 at 02:15 AM. |
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April 12, 2013, 01:34 PM | #5 |
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The terms are somewhat flexible and not rigidly adhered to by all. I have seen people use the term "battle rifle" for any and every rifle that ever saw infantry service using a "full powered" round. The SMLE is a battle rifle to some. TO others, "battle rifle" only applies to the semi auto or select fire infantry rifles using the "full power" round. Bolt guns are just "rifles"
The "power" level of the round comes from the WWII standard. Full power rounds are ones that approximately match the WWII infantry rifle rounds, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, .303 British, 7.62x54R, etc. Pistol rounds are the .45ACP, 9mm Luger, 7.62x25mm, etc. Submachineguns fire pistol rounds. Intermediate power rounds are those between rifle and pistol. 7.92x33mm, 7.62x39mm, etc. The 5.56mm (.223) got put into that category by virtue of its small caliber (.22) and case size. Also, the US .30 carbine round is sometimes classed by itself ("carbine" round), although some will put it in the pistol category (as it is close to the .357 magnum) while others consider it intermediate, because it is more powerful than the "standard" pistol rounds. The term "battle rifle" came about as an easy way to refer to (primarily) those rifles with "assault rifle features" but using "full power" rounds, like the M14, G3, FAL, SVT, etc. But its not as exculsive in use as assault rifle, which, in correct use, means select fire AND intermediate power round. Basically, inside these general guidelines, its pretty much up to who is doing the talking to define their use of the term.
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April 12, 2013, 08:49 PM | #6 |
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Scorch, the G. 43 fired the standard 7.9 rifle cartridge; perhaps you are thinking of the MP.43, later called the StG. 44.
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April 12, 2013, 11:14 PM | #7 | |
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They are designed for a role not from something else. An m14 EBR is an "Enhanced Battle rifle" (scope and different stock slaped on an old gun), but it is in the role of a DMR. A Sniper rifle is a rifle that is used by the role of a Sniper, hence Sniper rifle, its not called a EHR/ETR (Enhanced Hunting Rifle/Enhanced Target Rifle). My question is, does it really matter? You could go all day thinking about strange rifles that don't meet all the criteria of what its name is. The British L86 LSW (light Support Weapon) is just a longer heavier barrel and a bipod, but the M249 SAW is a Light Machine Gun (LMG) but is also referred to as a LSW? And the German MG42/34 was commonly referred to as a Heavy Machine gun, yet could be used in a Light Machine gun role. So basically it either boils down to; A) the name refers to the role it was intended for, or B) it doesn't really matter as there will always be something that is an exception. A far more important question is how come a Platypus lays eggs yet also feeds its young milk, and still be called a Mammal yet lay eggs??? |
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April 12, 2013, 11:25 PM | #8 |
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Also what does one classify 50 Beowulf as?
On one hand its a straight walled case like a pistol cartridge,but yet wasn't designed for pistols? But it has a mush higher muzzle energy than 308 or 30-06, so is it a rifle cartridge? Or is it a a carbine round? But generally Carbine refers to a shortened Assault or Battle Rifle, but the the 50 Beowulf can be had in both Carbine length and full size length barrels? |
April 13, 2013, 09:01 PM | #9 |
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The 50 Beowulf is a "rifle" round in that it does the same thing as a 45-70.
Doesn't mean that the lines don't get blurred between the categories all the time. Old and slow (ie, safe for all firearms) 45-70 loads can be surpassed by 454 Casull loads or other big bore handgun rounds. Some things are like platypi, they just don't fit well in any single category. Jimro
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April 13, 2013, 10:54 PM | #10 |
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Battle rifle is a made up term, it's defined by the person that types the loudest.
The Designated Rifleman is defined by his role not the weapon he carries. |
April 14, 2013, 11:02 AM | #11 |
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Maybe I'm simplistic.
What I mean is, the AR I used as an infantryman in Vietnam was a "battle rifle" The AR I use today is a target rifle. I used the first in battle, I use the latter in High Power Rifle Matches. But then again, I don't go much for labels, I lean more to how the tool is being used.
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April 16, 2013, 02:42 AM | #12 | ||
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Quote:
(this is sarcasm BTW). I think people get far to hung up on names and labels, and like I've pointed out you can draw what ever rules you want to label certain firearms, but there will always be something that doesn't fit like its supposed to. Quote:
A DMR is a rifle used by a DM and a Sniper rifle is used by a Sniper, it is the purpose that names the firearm, a Sniper isn't called a Sniper because he uses a Sniper rifle, his rifle is named after him. (Geez makes me sound like a mall ninja using the word Sniper so many times). |
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April 16, 2013, 11:01 AM | #13 |
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In my squad, we often had the PDM with us. (That's Platoon Designated Marksman, not enough rifles for each squad to have one, and as I was told repeatedly, our MTOE didn't call for SDMs)
I always called his weapon a rifle, and generally just a rifle, because all of us carried carbines, so in effect, he was the only one with a real rifle.
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