LIL GUN is H110 and then some

Clark · August 14, 2000, 01:27 AM

DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!

THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]

Hodgdon powder has some loads where LIL GUN out does H110 at 44 mag. That is not easy to do. http://www.hodgdon.com/

There is also one load for the 38 Super:1.265" 135 gr 12.8 gr LIL GUN 32,000 cup 1357 fps.

I used that data to calculate a +P+ load for the 9mm: 1.169" 130 gr 13.8 gr [case full] 46,000 cup 1558 fps.

So far, I have only worked up to 13.3 gr for 1524 fps.

The recoil feels different [big push like black poweder] and the brass looks different. Other hot laods make little rings on the side, but LIL GUN leaves the brass smooth like a wimp load.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

Cheapo · August 14, 2000, 02:19 AM

Sounds quite intriguing. HOw's the muzzle flash w/ Lil'Gun?

Hutch · August 14, 2000, 01:43 PM

Holy Cow!!!! 1500+ fps w/ a 130 grain bullet in 9x19???? I'm stunned. That is up there with and beyond .357Mag in a 4" revo. Let us hear how things are going. What are you shooting these H-bombs in?

Clark · August 15, 2000, 09:36 PM

I am shooting a Kel-Tek P11.

The muzzle flash is not noticable at that range, but such a slow powder probably has the biggest muzzle flash.

I have to be careful when I tilt my gun to catch the empty case with the range bag [to examine for pressure sign] that the recoil doesn't get me. If my wrist is not stiff, just one shot can make my wrist hurt for hours

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 15, 2000).]

Hutch · August 16, 2000, 10:27 AM

Clark, I'm really intrigued by the results you're getting. Do I understand correctly that you are getting a 130 grain bullet out the muzzle of a KelTec P11 at 1500fps? Is this a calculated number, or are you chronographing these? How does the brass look? This is some serious stuff!

Thanks....

Henry Bowman · August 17, 2000, 05:16 PM

What brand chronograph are you using? I've tried H-110 in .45acp with lousy results even with heavily compressed loads. More details please sir..henry

Clark · August 18, 2000, 01:43 AM

DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!

THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]

I have calculated the results.

Hodgdon: 38 Super 1.265", 135 gr FMJ, 12.8 gr LIL'GUN, 32,400 cup, and 1357 fps.

I calculate: 9mm 1.169" 130 gr FMJ, 13.8 gr LIL'GUN, 44,000 cup, and 1538 fps.

I used the ratios from Lee's "Modern Reloading":
1) If a bullet gets 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure gains 8%.
2) If powder gains 10%, then the velocity gains 8%, and the pressure 20%.
3) If the powder space goes up 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure looses 13%.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

Henry Bowman · August 18, 2000, 03:10 PM

Clark, calculating pressures and velocities doesn't work! Your going to hurt someone! Hodgdons Lil Gun actually loses pressure and velocity when compressed and may become unstable. I suggest you purchase a quality chronograph and test your loads before giving loading advise on any forum. In a previous 9mm question you mention loading substancially higher than printed loads without mentioning the particular firearm. All 9mm are not created equal, some can handle sub-gun pressures while others will be destroyed in short order. Are you accepting all liability for shooters taking your advise here??? henry

Henry Bowman · August 18, 2000, 03:28 PM

A small postscript Clark, how ya get 13gns of powder in a 9mm case?

**Mal H** · August 18, 2000, 04:13 PM

Clark, are you trying for the 8th blown up gun? I have got to agree with Henry, you are posting experiments that should only be carried out in your home and no one elses. Doing the experiments are fine, but you should never imply that they are safe, because they aren't. You are grossly over the industry pressure for the 9mm. And that is only a guess as you only calculate your pressures and velocities. Your calculations may have no bearing on reality.

You have a lot more faith in a Kel-Tec than I would. I certainly wouldn't do your experiments with a handheld gun, no matter who made it.

[This message has been edited by Mal H (edited August 19, 2000).]

Clark · August 18, 2000, 08:59 PM

You are right.

PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.

DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!

THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]

Below are last night's conditions and what was tested. Tonight I hope to go much higher tonight. I will report how many fingers I have left if it is enough to type with

124 gr. 9mm FMJ FP Hornady 1.169"
SAAMI max 35,000 psi or 33,000 cup
max cip is probably 35,000 cip
48k cup =+P+++
51k psi = +P+++
Tested on a Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs
new RP brass

Bullseye book max 4.9gr 1155 fps
I did 6.4 gr. 1424 fps 50k psi

Unique book 6.2 gr. 1170 fps
I did 7.4 gr. 1337 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]42k

Power Pistol book 6.6 gr. 1235 fps
I did 8.4 gr. 1489 fps 51k

Blue Dot book 8.2 gr. 1170 fps
I did 10.1 gr. 1372 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]42k

3N37 book 6.6 gr. 1248 fps
I did 8.6 gr. 1526 fps 51k cip

800X book 6.5 gr. 1115 fps
I did 7.7 gr. 1253 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]42k cup

AA#5 book 6.4 gr. 1200 fps
I did 8.7 gr. 1476 fps 48k cup

AA#9 book 11.4 gr. 1185 fps
I did 12.7 gr. 1251 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]38k cup

H110 book 10.9 gr. 1170 fps
I did 13.7 gr. 1400 fps 51k cup

LIL'GUN book 12.8 gr. 1357 fps
I did 13.8 gr. 1558 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]46k cup

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

Clark · August 19, 2000, 01:14 AM

DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!

THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]

LIL'GUN got wimpy at high compression

Power Pistol is the loudest

1) 90 gr 9mm JHP Gold Dot 1.114" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and
the free bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill.

Bullseye book load 95 gr FMJ 5.5 gr 1295 fps 31k psi
I did 7.8 gr 1706 fps 51k psi

Power Pistol book load 95 gr JHP 7.8 gr 1.055" 1455 FPS 33k psi
I did 10.7 gr. 1863 fps 51k psi

3N37 book load 7.3 gr 1518 fps 33k cip
I did 9.4 gr. 1850 fps 51k cip

AA#5 book load 7.5 gr 1.095" 1374 fps 33k cup
I did 9.4 gr. 1637 fps 48k cup

2) 115 gr 9mm Win JHP 1.169" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and
the free bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill.

Bullseye book load 5 gr 1180 fps 31k psi
I did 7.0 1517 fps 51k psi

Power Pistol book load 6.7 gr 1.12" 1280 fps 34l psi
I did 8.9 gr. 1572 fps 51k psi

3N37 book load 6.9 gr 1.124" 1322 fps 33k cip
I did 9.2 gr. 1633 fps 51k cip

AA#5 book load 7 gr 1.095" 1192 fps 33k cup
I did 9.7 gr 1494 fps 48k cup

3) 130 gr JHP 1.169" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and the free
bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill.

LIL'GUN book load [38 Super] 12.8 gr 135 gr 1.265" 1357 fps 32k cup
I did 13.8 gr. 1538 fps 44k cup

4) 147 gr Hornady XTP 1.169" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and the
free bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill.

Bullseye book load 4.2 gr 1.14" 33k psi 1010 fps
I did 5.6 gr 1252 fps 51k psi

Unique book load 4.4 gr 1.14" 1010 fps 33k psi
I did 5.9 gr 1258 fps 51k psi

Power Pistol book load 6.2 gr 1.14" 1095 fps 34k psi
I did 7.4 gr. 1326 fps 51k psi

Blue Dot book load 6.2 gr 1.14" 1050 fps 30k psi
I did 8.7 gr. 1360 fps 51k psi

2400 book load [38 Super]10.9 gr 1.28" 1215 fps 34k psi
I did 12 gr. 1401 fps 51k psi

800X book load 5.3 gr 1.13" 1025 fps 33k cup
I did 6.9 gr. 1234 fps 47k cup

AA#5 book load 5.3 gr 1.095" 991 fps 31k cup
I did 7.7 gr 1270 fps 48k cup

LIL GUN book load 12.8 gr 1.265 35k cup
I did 13.8 1357 fps 51k cup

5) .380 Berretta 1934 OAL=.962"
Power Pistol book load 4.8 gr 90 gr XTP .960" 1105 fps 21.5k psi
I did 6.8 gr 90 gr JHP Gold Dot 1473 fps 39.4k psi
[at 5 gr .0015" bulge, at 6.8 gr .003" of case bulge]

Problems?
The H110 and AA#9 would not compress and bent the bullet and fattened
the bullet from .355" to .360" this wastes allot of 147 gr XTP bullets.
The LIL GUN got wimpy at high compression
The Berretta bit me me on the web of my right hand.
The little 1934 is much more accurate than the P11.
Power Pistol is easily the loudest.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

August 14, 2000, 01:27 AM	#1
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!! THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B] Hodgdon powder has some loads where LIL GUN out does H110 at 44 mag. That is not easy to do. http://www.hodgdon.com/ There is also one load for the 38 Super:1.265" 135 gr 12.8 gr LIL GUN 32,000 cup 1357 fps. I used that data to calculate a +P+ load for the 9mm: 1.169" 130 gr 13.8 gr [case full] 46,000 cup 1558 fps. So far, I have only worked up to 13.3 gr for 1524 fps. The recoil feels different [big push like black poweder] and the brass looks different. Other hot laods make little rings on the side, but LIL GUN leaves the brass smooth like a wimp load. [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

August 14, 2000, 02:19 AM	#2
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Sounds quite intriguing. HOw's the muzzle flash w/ Lil'Gun?

August 14, 2000, 01:43 PM	#3
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	Holy Cow!!!! 1500+ fps w/ a 130 grain bullet in 9x19???? I'm stunned. That is up there with and beyond .357Mag in a 4" revo. Let us hear how things are going. What are you shooting these H-bombs in?

August 15, 2000, 09:36 PM	#4
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I am shooting a Kel-Tek P11. The muzzle flash is not noticable at that range, but such a slow powder probably has the biggest muzzle flash. I have to be careful when I tilt my gun to catch the empty case with the range bag [to examine for pressure sign] that the recoil doesn't get me. If my wrist is not stiff, just one shot can make my wrist hurt for hours [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 15, 2000).]

August 16, 2000, 10:27 AM	#5
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	Clark, I'm really intrigued by the results you're getting. Do I understand correctly that you are getting a 130 grain bullet out the muzzle of a KelTec P11 at 1500fps? Is this a calculated number, or are you chronographing these? How does the brass look? This is some serious stuff! Thanks....

August 17, 2000, 05:16 PM	#6
Henry Bowman Junior member Join Date: April 27, 2000 Location: AK Posts: 139	What brand chronograph are you using? I've tried H-110 in .45acp with lousy results even with heavily compressed loads. More details please sir..henry

August 18, 2000, 01:43 AM	#7
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!! THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B] I have calculated the results. Hodgdon: 38 Super 1.265", 135 gr FMJ, 12.8 gr LIL'GUN, 32,400 cup, and 1357 fps. I calculate: 9mm 1.169" 130 gr FMJ, 13.8 gr LIL'GUN, 44,000 cup, and 1538 fps. I used the ratios from Lee's "Modern Reloading": 1) If a bullet gets 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure gains 8%. 2) If powder gains 10%, then the velocity gains 8%, and the pressure 20%. 3) If the powder space goes up 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure looses 13%. [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

August 18, 2000, 03:10 PM	#8
Henry Bowman Junior member Join Date: April 27, 2000 Location: AK Posts: 139	Clark, calculating pressures and velocities doesn't work! Your going to hurt someone! Hodgdons Lil Gun actually loses pressure and velocity when compressed and may become unstable. I suggest you purchase a quality chronograph and test your loads before giving loading advise on any forum. In a previous 9mm question you mention loading substancially higher than printed loads without mentioning the particular firearm. All 9mm are not created equal, some can handle sub-gun pressures while others will be destroyed in short order. Are you accepting all liability for shooters taking your advise here??? henry

August 18, 2000, 03:28 PM	#9
Henry Bowman Junior member Join Date: April 27, 2000 Location: AK Posts: 139	A small postscript Clark, how ya get 13gns of powder in a 9mm case?

August 18, 2000, 04:13 PM	#10
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Clark, are you trying for the 8th blown up gun? I have got to agree with Henry, you are posting experiments that should only be carried out in your home and no one elses. Doing the experiments are fine, but you should never imply that they are safe, because they aren't. You are grossly over the industry pressure for the 9mm. And that is only a guess as you only calculate your pressures and velocities. Your calculations may have no bearing on reality. You have a lot more faith in a Kel-Tec than I would. I certainly wouldn't do your experiments with a handheld gun, no matter who made it. [This message has been edited by Mal H (edited August 19, 2000).]

August 18, 2000, 08:59 PM	#11
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	You are right. PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!! THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B] Below are last night's conditions and what was tested. Tonight I hope to go much higher tonight. I will report how many fingers I have left if it is enough to type with 124 gr. 9mm FMJ FP Hornady 1.169" SAAMI max 35,000 psi or 33,000 cup max cip is probably 35,000 cip 48k cup =+P+++ 51k psi = +P+++ Tested on a Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs new RP brass Bullseye book max 4.9gr 1155 fps I did 6.4 gr. 1424 fps 50k psi Unique book 6.2 gr. 1170 fps I did 7.4 gr. 1337 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]42k Power Pistol book 6.6 gr. 1235 fps I did 8.4 gr. 1489 fps 51k Blue Dot book 8.2 gr. 1170 fps I did 10.1 gr. 1372 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]42k 3N37 book 6.6 gr. 1248 fps I did 8.6 gr. 1526 fps 51k cip 800X book 6.5 gr. 1115 fps I did 7.7 gr. 1253 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]42k cup AA#5 book 6.4 gr. 1200 fps I did 8.7 gr. 1476 fps 48k cup AA#9 book 11.4 gr. 1185 fps I did 12.7 gr. 1251 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]38k cup H110 book 10.9 gr. 1170 fps I did 13.7 gr. 1400 fps 51k cup LIL'GUN book 12.8 gr. 1357 fps I did 13.8 gr. 1558 fps [all the case will hold before compressing]46k cup [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 18, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

August 19, 2000, 01:14 AM	#12
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!! THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B] LIL'GUN got wimpy at high compression Power Pistol is the loudest 1) 90 gr 9mm JHP Gold Dot 1.114" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and the free bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill. Bullseye book load 95 gr FMJ 5.5 gr 1295 fps 31k psi I did 7.8 gr 1706 fps 51k psi Power Pistol book load 95 gr JHP 7.8 gr 1.055" 1455 FPS 33k psi I did 10.7 gr. 1863 fps 51k psi 3N37 book load 7.3 gr 1518 fps 33k cip I did 9.4 gr. 1850 fps 51k cip AA#5 book load 7.5 gr 1.095" 1374 fps 33k cup I did 9.4 gr. 1637 fps 48k cup 2) 115 gr 9mm Win JHP 1.169" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and the free bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill. Bullseye book load 5 gr 1180 fps 31k psi I did 7.0 1517 fps 51k psi Power Pistol book load 6.7 gr 1.12" 1280 fps 34l psi I did 8.9 gr. 1572 fps 51k psi 3N37 book load 6.9 gr 1.124" 1322 fps 33k cip I did 9.2 gr. 1633 fps 51k cip AA#5 book load 7 gr 1.095" 1192 fps 33k cup I did 9.7 gr 1494 fps 48k cup 3) 130 gr JHP 1.169" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and the free bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill. LIL'GUN book load [38 Super] 12.8 gr 135 gr 1.265" 1357 fps 32k cup I did 13.8 gr. 1538 fps 44k cup 4) 147 gr Hornady XTP 1.169" Kel-Tek P11 with P40 recoil springs and the free bore beyond the chamber extended with a 23/64" drill. Bullseye book load 4.2 gr 1.14" 33k psi 1010 fps I did 5.6 gr 1252 fps 51k psi Unique book load 4.4 gr 1.14" 1010 fps 33k psi I did 5.9 gr 1258 fps 51k psi Power Pistol book load 6.2 gr 1.14" 1095 fps 34k psi I did 7.4 gr. 1326 fps 51k psi Blue Dot book load 6.2 gr 1.14" 1050 fps 30k psi I did 8.7 gr. 1360 fps 51k psi 2400 book load [38 Super]10.9 gr 1.28" 1215 fps 34k psi I did 12 gr. 1401 fps 51k psi 800X book load 5.3 gr 1.13" 1025 fps 33k cup I did 6.9 gr. 1234 fps 47k cup AA#5 book load 5.3 gr 1.095" 991 fps 31k cup I did 7.7 gr 1270 fps 48k cup LIL GUN book load 12.8 gr 1.265 35k cup I did 13.8 1357 fps 51k cup 5) .380 Berretta 1934 OAL=.962" Power Pistol book load 4.8 gr 90 gr XTP .960" 1105 fps 21.5k psi I did 6.8 gr 90 gr JHP Gold Dot 1473 fps 39.4k psi [at 5 gr .0015" bulge, at 6.8 gr .003" of case bulge] Problems? The H110 and AA#9 would not compress and bent the bullet and fattened the bullet from .355" to .360" this wastes allot of 147 gr XTP bullets. The LIL GUN got wimpy at high compression The Berretta bit me me on the web of my right hand. The little 1934 is much more accurate than the P11. Power Pistol is easily the loudest. [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]