October 13, 2006, 03:02 PM | #76 | |
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October 13, 2006, 03:10 PM | #77 | |
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As for the poster that brought up the question of the safety of one's family should you and the officer be subdued, when I got out of the car, I would have someone drive far enough away to still see the situation, and be ready to barrel down the road the instant things look bad. Is it completely without risk? no, but far too often we forget that this country would not have been founded without those willing to take risks...includding their families. |
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October 15, 2006, 12:01 AM | #78 |
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The man in question tried to sue, but was "informed" by CPD that doing so would not be in his best interest, the suit was dropped. It was assumed by the CPD that had my brother intervened, there would have been a dead cop. They seem to take that to heart there. I do believe the worst thing a man can do is kill a CPD member. (not having a lot of respect for a lot of what goes on in the CPD, they do not stand for felons killing Cops there.) There are very few, VERY FEW, people who kill a Chicago cop who make it to prison.
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October 15, 2006, 06:16 PM | #79 |
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Troy, calling people cowards is baloney. Let's say you are the sole support of your wife and child - they are not in the car but home. If you die, then they are on the street.
If that story was posted in the paper, I'm sure I can count on Troy to support that family and send the kid to college. As I said before, all folks who see helping behavior as some kind of black or white moral decision that they will make to help at risk of themselves are inadequately educated in moral philosophy and the psychology of altrusitic decision making. Easy to be a tough guy on the Internet.
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October 18, 2006, 05:23 AM | #80 | |
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October 18, 2006, 08:12 AM | #81 |
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So you have insurance and finances were the parameter of the issue, but aside from finances, don't your kids deserve to keep their parent and your spouse a spouse? No, you aren't likely to die helping a cop in a fight. Then again, cops aren't likely to die either, but the chances do increase.
My point is that the decision isn't just financial when it comes to considering one's own family. But hey, maybe your kids are grown and you don't like your spouse! |
October 18, 2006, 09:29 AM | #82 |
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DNS, I was just responding to the financial aspect. Of course the wife and kids would suffer from my death. Just as the families of thousands of Americans have suffered after the loss of a loved one. Sometimes and for somethings you just have to do the right thing. We aren't talking jumping onto a grenade here. We are talking about taking a risk to safe a fellow American who would do the same thing for you. If the outcome proved fatal family and friends will just have to understand. Many things increase the chance of death and some people take on these "extra" risks purely for the excitement of it, I don't. My wife and kids do understand that if I am needed to defend this country or if a situation as described above needed my help I will take the risks. My family would question why I didn't help.
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October 18, 2006, 10:15 AM | #83 |
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Threegun, would you cut your standard of living by adopting the kids of a hero and supporting the widow in the life style that they would find reasonable?
Would you intervene in all fights or just the cop fight? If you saw a gang banger get ready to kill another gang banger, would you intervene? My point is that the absolute calls for intervention really are not realistic.
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October 19, 2006, 07:50 AM | #84 | |||
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October 19, 2006, 09:33 AM | #85 |
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Thus my point is made. Folks do consider all kinds of factors in deciding to intervene. There is no absolute moral right or wrong decision.
Even with insurance, the loss of one to a family is devasting. Money is not the most important thing. So if one considers one's own family in deciding what to do, is a person morally bankrupt? All human life is not the same - the grandma about to die is worth more than the gangbanger about to die. But are they both not humans - esp. for those who spout religious values? Go back to my list - folks - you decide to intervene based on a calculation of factors. You might claim WHAT IS RIGHT AND YOU WILL ALWAYS DO THIS - but that's just not the case.
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October 19, 2006, 11:14 AM | #86 | ||||
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Glenn, I agreed with your list. It was a great post.
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October 19, 2006, 01:52 PM | #87 |
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Wasn't saying that your were religious - sorry if that was the implication - I was just speaking to some of the absolutist positions.
Have a good day!
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October 19, 2006, 03:51 PM | #88 |
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I would call 911. Thats the best you can expect from a cop, its the best that they can expect from a citizen.
And BouncerDan, if it were a Gainesville cop, well, I would probably just drive by and honk the horn.
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October 19, 2006, 03:58 PM | #89 |
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Glenn, No need to be sorry. I was raised with many of the morals and values found in Christianity.
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October 19, 2006, 04:15 PM | #90 |
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I love this.Reminds me of some of the discussions about using deadly force.Here we have a person contemplating the meaning of life,balancing his financial situation and the burden his death would be on the family,religious ramifications,legal ramifications,etc.All in the split second he has to make a decision.I just don't believe it.A person is going to act on an impulse that he probably doesn't even understand.After the fact he can make up whatever explanation he wants to for what he did or did not do.
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October 19, 2006, 04:25 PM | #91 |
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In this scenario, you probably have quite a few seconds before you act.
You see the cop in trouble, you have to stop, you have to get out of the car, etc. In psychological decision time, you have quite a bit for the subconscious evaluation to occur. In simulated shooting tests under speed pressure, gender and race influence decisions to shoot, so it's quite possible for all this to enter your decision process.
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October 19, 2006, 04:40 PM | #92 |
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Zero, Most of my decision making process is or has been done in advance. How much risk will I accept etc. Do I dive into a rushing stream to save a civilian if it is sure to kill me also? I don't think so. How about diving in with a life vest on? I can still die but it is less likely. The level of risk one plans on taking certainly involves some type of thinking process prior to involvement. Glenns list I believe is accurate. You might not realize you are thinking those things listed but you more than likely are.
We aren't talking about instantaneous surprise attacks requiring immediate response. |
October 19, 2006, 07:41 PM | #93 |
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The last place I want to be if a cop is being attacked is standing there holding a gun. He/she has put out the call and every cop within 50 miles is burning the tires off of their cars to get there, like the Mel Gibson movie where he calls a "broken arrow" and every resource within range is either on the way or already dumping ordnance. The cops arriving don't who is who, and I don't want to be standing there holding a smoking pistol, or even just picking my nose. I don't have a cell phone, so the best service I can render is to get out of the way. Will they pay your lawyer if the perp is harmed? Not likely. They have defacto carte blanche legal immunity for their actions under color of authority and legions of government shysters to take their side. I don't. Call me what you want. I'm not ashamed of being a cynic.
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October 19, 2006, 09:10 PM | #94 |
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For me personally, it would depend on the situation that I've rolled up on.
-- Driving up, I see a lone police officer in a physical scuffle with a suspect(s). I would stop, get out of my car but stay protected behind the door or vehicle itself. I would yell to the cop if he wanted assistance. If he says, "Hell yeah!" you can bet your ass I'm going in there. If the answer is no, I'd wait til he has subdued the suspect before letting him know I am going to split. -- Driving up, I see a lone police officer engaged in an armed standoff with gun drawn. I would keep driving unless he was on the ground and the suspect(s) were coming up to finish him off. My reason for driving is that the officer is trained on how to handle a situation where he needs to hold suspects at gunpoint until back-up arrives. If I stop, that adds a variable he doesn't need to be factoring in at that moment: Am I a possible threat? If I'm not a threat, I'm now a bystandard he needs to try and protect. I call 911 and tell them what I've seen. In my opinion, our peace officers and LEO's are there to do their job, and I intend to let them do that job without worrying about some Neighborhood Watch vigilante running up behind them. ****As a disclaimer: I believe no one really truly knows how they're going to act in a situation until they're put into it. Some soldiers go into a combat zone cocked, locked and ready to rock shouting "HOORAH!" As soon as a shot is fired at them, they tuck into the fetal position, afraid to move. If I ever do pass a situation that relates to this post, I'll let you know what I actually did.****
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October 29, 2006, 09:08 AM | #95 |
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There is a thin line between bravery and stupidity. Situation dictates the response. SA is the key. Heros... we call men that involve themselves in dangerous situations heros today, some are just lucky fools.
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October 29, 2006, 03:14 PM | #96 |
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Various luminaries of police leadership tell us the peons that we're too stupid to be outside walking around without their wise and highly trained protection. I am physically unable to assist on any level short of using a firearm, and I don't have the legal immunities and legions of shysters to back me up in court that the police have. Happening upon the scene you have no idea of the situational context- you could be pulling a gun on a cop making an arrest of a female dope dealer while under the impression that it's a damsel in distress (narks often look scuzzy). An earlier post pointed out that good Samaritans may be treated like criminals by the police. Until I get my badge, gun, and a paycheck in the mail I feel no obligation to jump into a situation fraught with peril. After all If somebody is bad enough to whomp on the police he's bad enough that I want no part of the situation, and if I'm so dumb that I need the government's armed minions to watch over me I'm not competent to intervene. The purpose of the law is to provide the legal industry with busy work and I will not volunteer to be shyster fodder.
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October 31, 2006, 12:36 AM | #97 |
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I think BILLCA said it best, but to keep this topic going. I almost always at least slow down when I see a police car with lights on, on side of road. I thought this should be the normal thing to do. Same thing as a flagger on side of road. If I saw something not in the norm then I would proceed as BILLCA says. Thats what the SIGNS are for, cop light/construction signs same thing slow down lookout. If you own a firearm and you have it on you in your car even more so. If you can't decide when or when not to pull your weapon leave it at home.
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November 2, 2006, 09:26 PM | #98 |
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Most of the time I really hate Louisiana but it's laws like this that make it a little easier to live here. We have a great law that allows us to use deadly force if we THINK we are going to be carjacked. However I couldn't find it.
http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/2371586.html There are a lot more articles on this case. |
November 4, 2006, 09:21 PM | #99 |
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Not any more
My wife just gave birth to a 1lb 4oz baby. I almost lost my wife and my kid. On the way to the hospital a cop pulled me over. I was speeding yes. BUT, I was keeping with the flow of traffic because I didn't want to cause a wreck when I was almost to the hospital. Plus I feel I had a right to drive a little fast. He wouldn't listen to me and told me to "Clean my F------ ears out and listen to him or I would go to jail" He doesn't realize I would have ran over his motorcycle with my truck and left him standing there. When I went to court and told the judge my story and what I was doing she still found me guilty. I now realize that most of the judicial system for traffic is monetary driven. You can pay more to get out of a ticket but you can't give them a reasonable excuse for it. From now on I support no cops or judicial figures. Don't get me wrong. They are not all bad. But I don't trust them anymore and they have never done anything for me but give me hard times when I was a kid. It's a long story.
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November 5, 2006, 05:38 PM | #100 |
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I would first make sure the officer wanted my help before giving it. A quick, short, loud "You need a hand?" is all that is needed. I don't want the cop to think I'm trying to help the BG or trying to distract him so the BG can get the upper hand.
If it were two non-uniformed person involved; it becomes harder to decipher who the BG is. The least thing you want to do is hurt a victim who just gained the upper hand in a violent struggle. Bringing a firearm into this really complicates things. What if both parties are the aggressors? A fist fight can turn worse any second; so who is to say when to intervene and when to keep walking? What if you "drew down" on two guys fist fighting and one or both of them produced firearms also? Now you turned a blackeye and sore jaw into gunshot wounds.
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