Do these things really matter?..... - Page 3

Siggy-06 · February 2, 2021, 07:16 AM

For range work/bullseye shooting: absolutely. For self defense: not really, unless you need to make a precision shot across your mansion sized house. ��

Brit · February 2, 2021, 07:17 AM

My area of expertise is more in in the realm of physical fights, fistfights.
And at 85 years of age, I have been around a while.

I had a part-time job as a bouncer, in Liverpool England, a rough sea-port.
1960 till 1965. The first 4 years at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame, on a very narrow Street, Mathew Street, a lot of fights at the Cavern. I was stabbed twice at the Cavern. My final year, at the Blue Angel, an actual night Club, on Seal Street. In 1965 my Family and I moved to Australia and stayed for 3 years.
My first Wife hated Australia, and we sailed off to Canada, promptly were Divorced. But went back to England, for a week, my Mothers funeral.

The fight I was involved in, during a night out at an Indian Restaurant, The Moon Glow. Involved 4 young thugs, around 18 years of age. Who in my estimation were attempting to leave without paying, in local speech "Doing a runner" using our group to make it easier. My wife and I my brother in Law
(useless) his wife, my wife's younger sister. We were 4 also, but only two men.

How does this fit into a gunfight? I decided to start fighting, as a solution to being attacked. My years of fighting made picking targets, damaging all four in a way was almost a clinical exercise. According to the report of the Police, I called, to the scene, caused two broken noses, one broken arm (a chair!) 4 broken ribs, a front kick, heel landing first. Information from a radio call to the Cottage Hospital Emergency ward, made by one of the Constables.

Moving forward to now my Glock 19, concealed, a single armed individual, or two. Already pointed handguns at people, not fired, not panicked! Once in Detroit, once in Rochester. Both times on my own, in my vehicle.
I remember distinctly seeing the sights.

CDW4ME · February 2, 2021, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brit

And at 85 years of age, I have been around a while.

Sir, I hope I am as literate as you are when/if I am 85 years old, not sure I qualify at 3 decades less.

Sanch · February 2, 2021, 10:27 PM

Hi Double Naught,

Yeah, I have knowledge of peer reviewed research. You're right, peer review does not imply that the underlying methodology was always sound.

At least two medical journals were outed by the AMA for publishing "erroneous" (possibly euphemism for fraudulent) covid research.

Gong further, just because any court determines fact within a contended issue doesn't mean the court's opinion is in fact true. It's quite common for two expert pathologists to disagree about cause of death. The hired pathologist is paid far more than county pathologists for his opinion.

raimius · February 3, 2021, 01:38 AM

Most people's accuracy degrades SIGNIFICANTLY under the stress of a defensive shooting. Firearms that hinder accurate shooting will only make that worse. Now, it is a matter of degree. If you jerk the trigger on a long, 20lb pull trigger, it will likely take it pretty far off course. If you jerk the trigger on a 3.5lb, crisp trigger, it will probably miss the mark by a lot less. Does that matter? Maybe...Sometimes...
The ability to actually perform the correct mechanics of marksmanship is MUCH more important than the gear. The gear only makes it easier/covers up some of the error of the shooter.

wild cat mccane · February 3, 2021, 04:54 PM

It is pretty solid when you stick to high journals, not just made for profit journals (ie you pay to publish within).

Had to step in because it's very common for people in the right to put down the scientific method because the peer review process is (evil) academic without knowing there is a difference between credibility in journals.

There are more journals that are junk than real research. If you don't know this, yeah, there is a lot of junk.

If you do know this, you never look at them and peer review is an amazing approach to the scientific process.

rickyrick · February 3, 2021, 07:14 PM

If you like the gun you’ll shoot it more, if you shoot it more you’ll get better.

I haven’t met too many people looking for a trigger that feels like a Walmart Stanley staple gun.

ritepath · February 5, 2021, 08:09 AM

All those count...All those make for a more enjoyable shooting experience. In the end that's where it will matter.

mrt949 · February 5, 2021, 09:33 AM

How many of you pulled a pistol on someone ?
I have on two occasions .One was in a bar during a discussion a person said he would handle me buy pulling his gun out of his boot and shoot me. I beat him to the draw end of discussion .Second was a bunch of drunk college kids . When one said I just take my dad's 45 out of the glove box and shoot you . A kid reached for the gun .I put a pistol to his head . I asked you have your hand on the gun he said YES .My neighbors came out .Settled things down. That is when you have a come to JESUS MOMENT . My pistol was a Beretta 21A 22LR
Think before you do something stupid . Now I carry a SIG 365 .

Double Naught Spy · February 5, 2021, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Hi Double Naught,

Yeah, I have knowledge of peer reviewed research. You're right, peer review does not imply that the underlying methodology was always sound.

At least two medical journals were outed by the AMA for publishing "erroneous" (possibly euphemism for fraudulent) covid research.

Then I don't think you would have made the naive statement that you did about peer review, LOL, or that all media is hearsay unless it is thus.

Nanuk · February 7, 2021, 10:00 AM

Quote:

So I’ve seen hundreds of YouTube gun reviews on all different makes/models. Each reviewer always touches on certain things such as:

Take up
Break
Wall
Reset
Etc..

My question is, in a life or death self defense situation, do these things even matter?

That depends..... To a certain degree, maybe. Lets break it down a little. The way the gun fits your hand will determine how, under stress you can effectively point the gun, to a degree.

The trigger characteristics will determine how well you are able to place the shot, to a degree.

Reset, I prefer how Robby Latham shoots, finger all the way off the trigger on every shot. The trick is consistency, same trigger pull every shot.

Mechanical accuracy, to a degree.

You add all these degrees up and you can start to see where every aspect affects you a little bit, each bit is not a big deal but when added together they can make a difference.

Quote:

My only concern in this situation is... do I have enough firepower to stop the threat and will the gun go bang when I pull the trigger.

How many times are you planning on missing? Why won't your gun go bang? Train so that you can make consistent hits on a playing card (3"x5") target at distances you shoot. There is a time distance equation for you to work out, the closer the target the faster you have to be. Don't take shots that you have a high percentage of missing.

Quote:

Am I missing something?

Are you?

Metric · February 9, 2021, 01:49 PM

Trigger, sights, and grip. They're how we interface with the gun, when shooting.

Maybe they matter to your shooting, or maybe they don't. But there isn't much else to optimize, assuming the gun works.

Jack19 · February 9, 2021, 02:32 PM

They may count, but you, likely, won't remember them. I never have. Front sights maybe, trigger feel and behavior, nope.

Shooting at a leisurely pace lets you notice, and recall, all sorts of things you think could be better, or different.

Shooting to save your life tends to happen a little faster. Usually. That extra 1/10th of an inch of this, or that, gets lost in the noise (which you probably wont remember either) and adrenalin.

stinkeypete · February 9, 2021, 02:52 PM

I have shot at paper targets for more than 50 years,
Stopped counting the deer I’ve shot after 23 or so, it must be in the 30s or so.
I have no idea how many rabbits I’ve shot
All with handguns. My family has owned Hi Points, Pistols with triggers worse than that, and I owned custom pistolsmithed .22 and .45 competition pistols. The best trigger ever was on my Baikal competition air pistol, a clean crisp 2 oz break.
These are my experiences.

All the opinions of what matters in a self defense situation... you fellas have that happen a lot, or is it just speculation and theorizing?

There is still some time left for rabbit and squirrel. Get out and shoot something yummy!

GoBoilers! · February 10, 2021, 07:07 AM

...Do they matter?
For me, the trigger action is the last feature I consider when buying a handgun, but I only use mine for target shooting and personal defense. Not interested in competitive games. IF I were, my opinion might change.
My main advice is to get familiar with the triggers of the guns you shoot. Practice with them. So for me, the trigger's features are not that important.
But I do appreciate the 1911's trigger - that crisp break on single action is an experience like no other.
Be Safe!

Carl the Floor Walker · February 10, 2021, 01:12 PM

Yes they matter to me. I had one very nice gun that shot very well and very reliable. A EDC gun that I loved the size, weight, manufacture etc. I liked everything but the Light Crisp trigger. After shooting it, it became even lighter. It had a trigger span that was light, then the trigger basically had no wall and would break quickly. I finally traded it off for another Kahr CM9 which was similar size and a perfect EDC carry and defensive trigger.
I know some that want the lightest trigger possible. Even some would take the same gun with the light trigger and send it off to make it even lighter.
I remember Hickcock45 reviewing the gun and commented "some of these guns now have triggers that are very light, almost too light, more like target guns". I agree. If a person likes one fine. But just not for me. I see no need for one or any benefit for EDC.
So, again to answer the question, YES it matters.

rickyrick · February 10, 2021, 01:42 PM

I think that yes, triggers can be too light.

Ignition Override · February 11, 2021, 01:24 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQOHBSuY7TM"Active Self Protection": some of you have seen a sample of the multiple dozens of true situations presented on this channel from security cameras. Nothing is recreated, or acting.

The narrators briefs us about the general situation, then at the end he critiques which of the defender's decisions seemed proper in a given setting, and what could have been improved.

Sadly, in this large store, the law-abiding citizen didn't know that the woman was actually ready to protect the armed bad guy--

at a distance. Most other videos on this channel are not tragic for the good guys.

The vast variety of scenarios in these actual videos -- in my opinion -- have no equal.

,

Yes.......a good trigger is nice. Whatever triggers were used by the more fortunate good guys in these videos--- those are the triggers for me. Apparently the type won't matter very much if we quickly understand the scenario we are in.
>> Endlich, meine Kameraden....what's more important - having the best trigger, or which decisions to make about how, or Whether to use a gun at all in a specific situation? Krav Maga (Youtube) might sometimes provide a better self-defense.

February 2, 2021, 07:16 AM	#51
Siggy-06 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2014 Location: Florida Posts: 1,148	For range work/bullseye shooting: absolutely. For self defense: not really, unless you need to make a precision shot across your mansion sized house. �� __________________ Flicks just like a lighter, just a different kind of fire.

February 2, 2021, 10:27 PM	#54
Sanch Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2020 Posts: 154	Hi Double Naught, Yeah, I have knowledge of peer reviewed research. You're right, peer review does not imply that the underlying methodology was always sound. At least two medical journals were outed by the AMA for publishing "erroneous" (possibly euphemism for fraudulent) covid research. Gong further, just because any court determines fact within a contended issue doesn't mean the court's opinion is in fact true. It's quite common for two expert pathologists to disagree about cause of death. The hired pathologist is paid far more than county pathologists for his opinion. Last edited by JohnKSa; February 3, 2021 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Off topic material removed.

February 3, 2021, 04:54 PM	#56
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	It is pretty solid when you stick to high journals, not just made for profit journals (ie you pay to publish within). Had to step in because it's very common for people in the right to put down the scientific method because the peer review process is (evil) academic without knowing there is a difference between credibility in journals. There are more journals that are junk than real research. If you don't know this, yeah, there is a lot of junk. If you do know this, you never look at them and peer review is an amazing approach to the scientific process. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

February 5, 2021, 08:09 AM	#58
ritepath Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,419	All those count...All those make for a more enjoyable shooting experience. In the end that's where it will matter. __________________ There's only one...

February 5, 2021, 09:33 AM	#59
mrt949 Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,692	How many of you pulled a pistol on someone ? I have on two occasions .One was in a bar during a discussion a person said he would handle me buy pulling his gun out of his boot and shoot me. I beat him to the draw end of discussion .Second was a bunch of drunk college kids . When one said I just take my dad's 45 out of the glove box and shoot you . A kid reached for the gun .I put a pistol to his head . I asked you have your hand on the gun he said YES .My neighbors came out .Settled things down. That is when you have a come to JESUS MOMENT . My pistol was a Beretta 21A 22LR Think before you do something stupid . Now I carry a SIG 365 . __________________ No Gun Big Or Small Does It All Last edited by mrt949; February 5, 2021 at 01:16 PM.

February 2, 2021, 07:17 AM	#52
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	My area of expertise is more in in the realm of physical fights, fistfights. And at 85 years of age, I have been around a while. I had a part-time job as a bouncer, in Liverpool England, a rough sea-port. 1960 till 1965. The first 4 years at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame, on a very narrow Street, Mathew Street, a lot of fights at the Cavern. I was stabbed twice at the Cavern. My final year, at the Blue Angel, an actual night Club, on Seal Street. In 1965 my Family and I moved to Australia and stayed for 3 years. My first Wife hated Australia, and we sailed off to Canada, promptly were Divorced. But went back to England, for a week, my Mothers funeral. The fight I was involved in, during a night out at an Indian Restaurant, The Moon Glow. Involved 4 young thugs, around 18 years of age. Who in my estimation were attempting to leave without paying, in local speech "Doing a runner" using our group to make it easier. My wife and I my brother in Law (useless) his wife, my wife's younger sister. We were 4 also, but only two men. How does this fit into a gunfight? I decided to start fighting, as a solution to being attacked. My years of fighting made picking targets, damaging all four in a way was almost a clinical exercise. According to the report of the Police, I called, to the scene, caused two broken noses, one broken arm (a chair!) 4 broken ribs, a front kick, heel landing first. Information from a radio call to the Cottage Hospital Emergency ward, made by one of the Constables. Moving forward to now my Glock 19, concealed, a single armed individual, or two. Already pointed handguns at people, not fired, not panicked! Once in Detroit, once in Rochester. Both times on my own, in my vehicle. I remember distinctly seeing the sights.

February 3, 2021, 01:38 AM	#55
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Most people's accuracy degrades SIGNIFICANTLY under the stress of a defensive shooting. Firearms that hinder accurate shooting will only make that worse. Now, it is a matter of degree. If you jerk the trigger on a long, 20lb pull trigger, it will likely take it pretty far off course. If you jerk the trigger on a 3.5lb, crisp trigger, it will probably miss the mark by a lot less. Does that matter? Maybe...Sometimes... The ability to actually perform the correct mechanics of marksmanship is MUCH more important than the gear. The gear only makes it easier/covers up some of the error of the shooter.

February 3, 2021, 07:14 PM	#57
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,236	If you like the gun you’ll shoot it more, if you shoot it more you’ll get better. I haven’t met too many people looking for a trigger that feels like a Walmart Stanley staple gun.

February 9, 2021, 01:49 PM	#62
Metric Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2016 Posts: 344	Trigger, sights, and grip. They're how we interface with the gun, when shooting. Maybe they matter to your shooting, or maybe they don't. But there isn't much else to optimize, assuming the gun works.

February 9, 2021, 02:32 PM	#63
Jack19 Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Ford Galaxy Posts: 713	They may count, but you, likely, won't remember them. I never have. Front sights maybe, trigger feel and behavior, nope. Shooting at a leisurely pace lets you notice, and recall, all sorts of things you think could be better, or different. Shooting to save your life tends to happen a little faster. Usually. That extra 1/10th of an inch of this, or that, gets lost in the noise (which you probably wont remember either) and adrenalin. __________________ Liberty will not long survive the total extinction of morals. Samuel Adams Last edited by Jack19; February 9, 2021 at 02:40 PM.

February 9, 2021, 02:52 PM	#64
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	I have shot at paper targets for more than 50 years, Stopped counting the deer I’ve shot after 23 or so, it must be in the 30s or so. I have no idea how many rabbits I’ve shot All with handguns. My family has owned Hi Points, Pistols with triggers worse than that, and I owned custom pistolsmithed .22 and .45 competition pistols. The best trigger ever was on my Baikal competition air pistol, a clean crisp 2 oz break. These are my experiences. All the opinions of what matters in a self defense situation... you fellas have that happen a lot, or is it just speculation and theorizing? There is still some time left for rabbit and squirrel. Get out and shoot something yummy! __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

February 10, 2021, 07:07 AM	#65
GoBoilers! Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: N. Indiana Posts: 21	...Do they matter? For me, the trigger action is the last feature I consider when buying a handgun, but I only use mine for target shooting and personal defense. Not interested in competitive games. IF I were, my opinion might change. My main advice is to get familiar with the triggers of the guns you shoot. Practice with them. So for me, the trigger's features are not that important. But I do appreciate the 1911's trigger - that crisp break on single action is an experience like no other. Be Safe!

February 10, 2021, 01:12 PM	#66
Carl the Floor Walker member Join Date: June 3, 2017 Location: South Posts: 1,422	Yes they matter to me. I had one very nice gun that shot very well and very reliable. A EDC gun that I loved the size, weight, manufacture etc. I liked everything but the Light Crisp trigger. After shooting it, it became even lighter. It had a trigger span that was light, then the trigger basically had no wall and would break quickly. I finally traded it off for another Kahr CM9 which was similar size and a perfect EDC carry and defensive trigger. I know some that want the lightest trigger possible. Even some would take the same gun with the light trigger and send it off to make it even lighter. I remember Hickcock45 reviewing the gun and commented "some of these guns now have triggers that are very light, almost too light, more like target guns". I agree. If a person likes one fine. But just not for me. I see no need for one or any benefit for EDC. So, again to answer the question, YES it matters.

February 10, 2021, 01:42 PM	#67
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,236	I think that yes, triggers can be too light.

February 11, 2021, 01:24 AM	#68
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,886	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQOHBSuY7TM"Active Self Protection": some of you have seen a sample of the multiple dozens of true situations presented on this channel from security cameras. Nothing is recreated, or acting. The narrators briefs us about the general situation, then at the end he critiques which of the defender's decisions seemed proper in a given setting, and what could have been improved. Sadly, in this large store, the law-abiding citizen didn't know that the woman was actually ready to protect the armed bad guy-- at a distance. Most other videos on this channel are not tragic for the good guys. The vast variety of scenarios in these actual videos -- in my opinion -- have no equal. , Yes.......a good trigger is nice. Whatever triggers were used by the more fortunate good guys in these videos--- those are the triggers for me. Apparently the type won't matter very much if we quickly understand the scenario we are in. >> Endlich, meine Kameraden....what's more important - having the best trigger, or which decisions to make about how, or Whether to use a gun at all in a specific situation? Krav Maga (Youtube) might sometimes provide a better self-defense. Last edited by Ignition Override; February 11, 2021 at 02:06 AM.