Do you risk shooting the famous 44 Special "Keith" load?

Army GI · May 18, 2008, 05:15 PM

For 44 Special, I usually shoot a .44 lead LRN bullet at about 950fps or so from my 6.5" Taurus Raging Bull 44 Magnum.

However, I've read a lot of lately about the world famous load that lead to the development of the 44 Magnum. I won't post the exact loading as I'm sure you already know what it is if you're reading this thread.

But I was thinking that my 240gr Hornady XTP bullets at 1200fps would be just an excellent self defense load.

Is that information kept out of the reloading manuals because of the older 44 specials out there that can blow up using the Keith load? Should I be worried using this in my 44 Magnum revolver?

The Tourist · May 18, 2008, 05:25 PM

Keith's original load was made from "balloon head" cases. That is a type of folded brass, which holds a tad more powder.

By using a solid-head case, you cannot get that much powder loaded without skyrocketing pressures. In fact, most everyone using a Keith load already lowers the the amount of 2400 used simply because of the horrible recoil.

Army GI · May 18, 2008, 05:35 PM

Skyrocketing pressure is something I definately want to avoid. I want a bullet, not a rocket

I'm going against my own rule, but John Taffin stated in his Sept04 Article:

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Quote:

With the arrival of solid head brass around 1950, Keith dropped his load back to 17.0 grains. In either case, this is a very powerful load giving approximately 1,200 fps at the muzzle. It's not a load to be taken lightly! With today's primers and the current production of #2400, the same results can be achieved with 16.0-16.5 grains and SHOULD ONLY BE USED in modern large frame revolvers produced after World War II. I do not use "Keith" in Italian replicas. For my own use it's confined to the Smith & Wesson Model 24 and Model 624 sixguns manufactured in the early 1980s, the Colt New Frontier, the .44 Specials of Texas Longhorn Arms, and, of course, in any .44 Magnum sixgun.

Something tells me, I should stick with the Lyman manual of a maximum load of 13.5. But on the other hand, I don't know if they say that because there are some old guns that can't handle the new loads in the same way some 44-40 guns where unsuitable for the new loads came out for it.

The Tourist · May 18, 2008, 05:43 PM

Army GI, I shoot his bullet, the 429421 with a square cornered lube groove. I cannot imagine that slug at the original pressures being shot through a creosote telephone pole for fun and giggles. Still, the "44 Associates" were doing a lot of really bizarre research.

jamaica · May 19, 2008, 09:21 AM

I have never loaded the "Keith" load, however the old Lyman Manual showed loads of Unique considerably higher than what is currently being shown in the manuals for 44 Spl. I fired thousands of those hot loads in my Colt SAA. No problems. (950 fps, 250 gr semi wadcutter) My Colt was new manufacture about 1958, not one of the old ones. (well, by now its looking sort of old)

I don't load those hot anymore, but stick to the current reccomendations. I guess there is good reason the loads have been reduced.

For your 44 Mag revolver, I would load Magnum brass. Why would you want to use the shorter brass? It just makes a difficult cleanup job. Load them to the speed you want them, within safe pressures.

Quote:

Army GI, I shoot his bullet, the 429421 with a square cornered lube groove.

Hey, that is the same bullet I use. I find it funny that the 7th edition Hornady manual doesn't even give any loads for a 250 grain bullet in 44 Spl. What's up with that?

The Tourist · May 19, 2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamaica

I would load Magnum brass.

There are many--and I'm one of them--who believe that the SPL loading is the more accurate of the two.

In my entire life I have only shot one cloverleaf with a Magnum. Oh, I've come close, but only touching once.

With good handloads and a clean revolver, most target shooters can shoot cloverleaves with a SPL on a regular basis.

gandog56 · May 19, 2008, 11:28 AM

I got a Ruger Superblackhawk, I ain't afraid of any load!

Jim Watson · May 19, 2008, 11:38 AM

Elmer Keith didn't load no stinkin' jacketed bullets.

I don't see why you couldn't safely shoot overloaded Specials in a Magnum gun, but wonder why you want to.

Army GI · May 19, 2008, 05:24 PM

I'd rather load the 44 Special to potential than load the 44 Magnum down. My pet load for 44 Magnum is a 300gr Hornady XTP at maximum velocity.

Alleykat · May 19, 2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

But I was thinking that my 240gr Hornady XTP bullets at 1200fps would be just an excellent self defense load

Think some more!

Army GI · May 19, 2008, 06:06 PM

I could do without the condescending remarks, thank you.

Ozzieman · May 19, 2008, 07:15 PM

I have been shooting and reloading 44 SP and MAG for over 30 years.
The only gun that I have ever worked loads up like that was for a Contender. The reason was to see what it took with the powders that I commonly use to get up to the high pressure signs.
I don’t think that even with a two tone press you could load enough H110 in a case to hurt a contender but it sure made a great flame thrower.
Would I trust my 24 with a load like that? Sure, but I really don’t want to pound on a nice gun like that.
I have 3 N-frame 44 SP revolvers and running loads like that through my Thunder Ranch is something that will never happen.
I also have 3 light weight 44 SP guns and the lightest is a Charter Bulldog and with factory 44 SP it’s hard enough to control as is.
To me, shot placement with the largest bullet and with good energy, like Winchester silvertips, that I can rapidly place two or more shots are a lot more important than maximum energy.
Would your gun take it? Sure, but work up the loads slowly. Or you might find out what the back side of your bull tastes like.

Rampant_Colt · May 19, 2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Army GI

But I was thinking that my 240gr Hornady XTP bullets at 1200fps would be just an excellent self defense load

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleykat

Think some more!

And you'd be wrong, alleykat - the .430 Hornady 240gr XTP is a most excellent SD bullet at that velocity and higher for those that can handle the heavy recoil.
That and the 300gr XTP loading are recommended by the experts at www.firearmstactical.com

The Keith load is WAY too hot to put into my lil .44 snubby. I'd stick with magnum revolvers to shoot that load in.

I see no need to 'magnumize' the .44 Special when the .44 Magnum is more suited for the task

**44 AMP** · May 20, 2008, 01:08 AM

And remember Elmer was shooting his own cast slugs, sized for his guns, was shooting them out of S&W triple locks, using powder that (while still made today), isn't exactly the same as what is sold today, didn't have good reliable means for measuring pressure, and blew up several different guns during his life, "experimenting".

And Elmer liked things loaded "hot".

eastbank · May 20, 2008, 06:13 AM

i had a S&W 624 44spl with 6.5 inch barrel, my load was kieth hard cast .429421 bullet with 17grs 2400 and a hard crimp, it ran just about 1200fps. i had no problem with the gun or load, in fact i shot thru a small doe lenth ways. i only used this load for hunting and loaded down for causal shooting. eastbank.

Master Blaster · May 20, 2008, 06:52 AM

I really don't see the fascination with shooting overloaded rounds that some seem to have here. If .44 special isn't enough then load .44 magnum, if thats not enough there is .454 cassull, and if thats not sufficient out of a handgun there is 500 S&W and 460 S&W.

Personally I like to shoot pleasant accurate loads in the 900-1000 fps range in my .44 magnum. That load is quite sufficient for any 2 legged predators, or any ferral dogs I might run across. The recoil and blast are small enough to allow for accurate shot placemnt on any follow up shots.

Stick to reloading manual specs that have been tested and proven, and you will keep your smiths and rugers running well for a long time, and your fingers and eyes working and attached to your body.

Alleykat · May 20, 2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

I could do without the condescending remarks, thank you.

Didn't intend to come off as "condescending"! Was just encouraging you do do a little more research and thinking about the difference between loads used for dropping a deer @ 100 yds and s.d. purposes.

Heavy, fast rounds aren't usually optimal for s.d. purposes, for reasons that should be obvious.

crowbeaner · May 20, 2008, 02:31 PM

I've loaded and shot Elmer's loads for years. I shot them in a Ruger Redhawk and several M29s. Considering the paucity of replacement parts for ANY .44 special Smith (current or former production) especially the older ones, I don't recommend that you perk your ammo right up in the special case unless you intend to shoot it in a MAGNUM revolver. I had to load special combinations in the 44 magnum case for my Winchester M94 SRC. I loaded 17.5 of 2400 and 18.5 of WW630 with standard LP primers and seated the bullet deeply into the case crimping just over the front driving band to keep the OAL short enough to feed through the action. The bullets used were the RCBS 44-240-SWC gascheck, and the RCBS 44-245-KT, which is the RCBS equivalent of the Lyman 429421. .44 special guns were not designed for magnum pressures, and heavy loads only accelerate wear and tear. If you want to wear out your gun prematurely, go ahead. Just be prepared for a stiff repair bill when you have to send your gun back to the factory; maybe Taurus will get it back to you in a year or so.

Army GI · May 20, 2008, 03:14 PM

The Raging Bull is a 44 Magnum.

AlaskaMike · May 20, 2008, 03:20 PM

On the .44 special Keith load, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in any .44 magnum revolver like the Raging Bull. You'll have to clean out the carbon ring from using the shorter brass, but that's no big deal.

Quote:

Was just encouraging you do do a little more research and thinking about the difference between loads used for dropping a deer @ 100 yds and s.d. purposes.

I always smile when I read how different deer are from humans--about how much more gun/caliber you need at a minimum to take a deer, and how such a gun/caliber is way, way overkill for self defense.

I'm amazed how often many people forget that most deer are around 180 - 200 lbs. The difference between the two is that any human worth shooting is worth shooting because he'll kill you if you don't take action. The deer will simply run away.

Sure, sure, you don't want overpenetration if you can help it in a self defense situation, but let's face it--that worry is way overtalked. If you want something that will take out an intruder in your home, but not penetrate the drywall, get yourself a Star Trek phaser.

Mike

Rampant_Colt · May 20, 2008, 04:42 PM

Well said, AlaskaMike.

Sticky case extraction is a real pain in the hand after a few cylinders of hot .44 Special loads in a .44 Mag. [same thing in .38/.357] - that's why i see no need to magnumize the .44 Special when the .44 Magnum is better and more suited to the task.

E.K. was basically improvising back in the day

Webleymkv · May 21, 2008, 01:43 AM

I've used the same charge of 2400 under a 200grn Hornady XTP in my Model 21 (went with a lighter bullet just to be on the safe side. No signs of excess pressure but both recoil and fireball were impressive to say the least. As far as reasons to hot rod the Special, my M21 weighs 37oz empty. That's quite a bit lighter than a M29 but is still a steel N-Frame capable of handling heavy loads. Truthfully though, I much prefer the Skeeter Skelton load (250grn LSWC @ ~950fps) as it's much more pleasant to shoot.

**Mike Irwin** · May 21, 2008, 07:55 AM

Not in my Model 24. I paid way too much for it to start rattling its cage.

LET-CA · July 18, 2015, 12:52 PM

I recently put a whole box of 44 Specials loaded with Lyman 429421 bullets over 17. grains of 2400 in 44 special cases through my Ruger Super Redhawk. No signs of overpressure or problems of any kind. The recoil was not unlike a stout 44 magnum load. Since I have plenty of stout 44 magnum loads, I think I keep the 44 Specials for lighter duty use in the future.

May 18, 2008, 05:15 PM	#1
Army GI Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2006 Posts: 284	Do you risk shooting the famous 44 Special "Keith" load? For 44 Special, I usually shoot a .44 lead LRN bullet at about 950fps or so from my 6.5" Taurus Raging Bull 44 Magnum. However, I've read a lot of lately about the world famous load that lead to the development of the 44 Magnum. I won't post the exact loading as I'm sure you already know what it is if you're reading this thread. But I was thinking that my 240gr Hornady XTP bullets at 1200fps would be just an excellent self defense load. Is that information kept out of the reloading manuals because of the older 44 specials out there that can blow up using the Keith load? Should I be worried using this in my 44 Magnum revolver? Last edited by Army GI; May 20, 2008 at 03:16 PM.

May 19, 2008, 11:28 AM	#7
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 979	I got a Ruger Superblackhawk, I ain't afraid of any load! __________________ Some people think I'm paranoid because I have guns. If I have guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?

May 20, 2008, 01:08 AM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,818	Remember, the past is another country, they do things differently there And remember Elmer was shooting his own cast slugs, sized for his guns, was shooting them out of S&W triple locks, using powder that (while still made today), isn't exactly the same as what is sold today, didn't have good reliable means for measuring pressure, and blew up several different guns during his life, "experimenting". And Elmer liked things loaded "hot". __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 20, 2008, 02:31 PM	#18
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I've loaded and shot Elmer's loads for years. I shot them in a Ruger Redhawk and several M29s. Considering the paucity of replacement parts for ANY .44 special Smith (current or former production) especially the older ones, I don't recommend that you perk your ammo right up in the special case unless you intend to shoot it in a MAGNUM revolver. I had to load special combinations in the 44 magnum case for my Winchester M94 SRC. I loaded 17.5 of 2400 and 18.5 of WW630 with standard LP primers and seated the bullet deeply into the case crimping just over the front driving band to keep the OAL short enough to feed through the action. The bullets used were the RCBS 44-240-SWC gascheck, and the RCBS 44-245-KT, which is the RCBS equivalent of the Lyman 429421. .44 special guns were not designed for magnum pressures, and heavy loads only accelerate wear and tear. If you want to wear out your gun prematurely, go ahead. Just be prepared for a stiff repair bill when you have to send your gun back to the factory; maybe Taurus will get it back to you in a year or so. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

May 20, 2008, 04:42 PM	#21
Rampant_Colt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 1,478	Well said, AlaskaMike. Sticky case extraction is a real pain in the hand after a few cylinders of hot .44 Special loads in a .44 Mag. [same thing in .38/.357] - that's why i see no need to magnumize the .44 Special when the .44 Magnum is better and more suited to the task. E.K. was basically improvising back in the day __________________ member of an elite paramilitary organization: Eagle Scouts

May 18, 2008, 05:25 PM	#2
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	Keith's original load was made from "balloon head" cases. That is a type of folded brass, which holds a tad more powder. By using a solid-head case, you cannot get that much powder loaded without skyrocketing pressures. In fact, most everyone using a Keith load already lowers the the amount of 2400 used simply because of the horrible recoil.

May 18, 2008, 05:43 PM	#4
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	Army GI, I shoot his bullet, the 429421 with a square cornered lube groove. I cannot imagine that slug at the original pressures being shot through a creosote telephone pole for fun and giggles. Still, the "44 Associates" were doing a lot of really bizarre research.

May 19, 2008, 11:38 AM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,538	Elmer Keith didn't load no stinkin' jacketed bullets. I don't see why you couldn't safely shoot overloaded Specials in a Magnum gun, but wonder why you want to.

May 19, 2008, 05:24 PM	#9
Army GI Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2006 Posts: 284	I'd rather load the 44 Special to potential than load the 44 Magnum down. My pet load for 44 Magnum is a 300gr Hornady XTP at maximum velocity.

May 19, 2008, 06:06 PM	#11
Army GI Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2006 Posts: 284	I could do without the condescending remarks, thank you.

May 19, 2008, 07:15 PM	#12
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I have been shooting and reloading 44 SP and MAG for over 30 years. The only gun that I have ever worked loads up like that was for a Contender. The reason was to see what it took with the powders that I commonly use to get up to the high pressure signs. I don’t think that even with a two tone press you could load enough H110 in a case to hurt a contender but it sure made a great flame thrower. Would I trust my 24 with a load like that? Sure, but I really don’t want to pound on a nice gun like that. I have 3 N-frame 44 SP revolvers and running loads like that through my Thunder Ranch is something that will never happen. I also have 3 light weight 44 SP guns and the lightest is a Charter Bulldog and with factory 44 SP it’s hard enough to control as is. To me, shot placement with the largest bullet and with good energy, like Winchester silvertips, that I can rapidly place two or more shots are a lot more important than maximum energy. Would your gun take it? Sure, but work up the loads slowly. Or you might find out what the back side of your bull tastes like.

May 20, 2008, 06:13 AM	#15
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i had a S&W 624 44spl with 6.5 inch barrel, my load was kieth hard cast .429421 bullet with 17grs 2400 and a hard crimp, it ran just about 1200fps. i had no problem with the gun or load, in fact i shot thru a small doe lenth ways. i only used this load for hunting and loaded down for causal shooting. eastbank.

May 20, 2008, 06:52 AM	#16
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	I really don't see the fascination with shooting overloaded rounds that some seem to have here. If .44 special isn't enough then load .44 magnum, if thats not enough there is .454 cassull, and if thats not sufficient out of a handgun there is 500 S&W and 460 S&W. Personally I like to shoot pleasant accurate loads in the 900-1000 fps range in my .44 magnum. That load is quite sufficient for any 2 legged predators, or any ferral dogs I might run across. The recoil and blast are small enough to allow for accurate shot placemnt on any follow up shots. Stick to reloading manual specs that have been tested and proven, and you will keep your smiths and rugers running well for a long time, and your fingers and eyes working and attached to your body.

May 20, 2008, 03:14 PM	#19
Army GI Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2006 Posts: 284	The Raging Bull is a 44 Magnum.

May 21, 2008, 01:43 AM	#22
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	I've used the same charge of 2400 under a 200grn Hornady XTP in my Model 21 (went with a lighter bullet just to be on the safe side. No signs of excess pressure but both recoil and fireball were impressive to say the least. As far as reasons to hot rod the Special, my M21 weighs 37oz empty. That's quite a bit lighter than a M29 but is still a steel N-Frame capable of handling heavy loads. Truthfully though, I much prefer the Skeeter Skelton load (250grn LSWC @ ~950fps) as it's much more pleasant to shoot.

May 21, 2008, 07:55 AM	#23
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	Not in my Model 24. I paid way too much for it to start rattling its cage. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 18, 2015, 12:52 PM	#24
LET-CA Junior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: Northern CA Posts: 2	Super Redhawk handles it quite nicely I recently put a whole box of 44 Specials loaded with Lyman 429421 bullets over 17. grains of 2400 in 44 special cases through my Ruger Super Redhawk. No signs of overpressure or problems of any kind. The recoil was not unlike a stout 44 magnum load. Since I have plenty of stout 44 magnum loads, I think I keep the 44 Specials for lighter duty use in the future.