Conversion Kit's Legal Implications if used for SD.

golfnutrlv · August 28, 2010, 07:25 PM

Hi everyone, looking for some opinions, reads, ideas regarding conversion kits.

I own a Sig P226 E2 in 9mm. I have been saving up for a .357 Sig Caliber Exchange kit from Sig, and this question has been brewing in my mind.

What are the legal issues if I ever had to defend my life with the .357 Sig Conversion kit? The ammunition would be factory if it was carried.

I really don't think I will carry .357 that much, but just been thinking.

The real idea of the kit is to give me a fun caliber to shoot, and a good woods gun without having the buy another gun.

Thoughts, ideas??

robhof · August 28, 2010, 07:38 PM

As longs it's a legally purchased conversion, I can't see any possible problems. I bought a 40 S&W barrel and slide for my M9 and regularly switch back and forth, I also have a 45 BH convertable in 45Lc and 45 Acp, as well as a Single 6 in 22Lr and 22 mag.

Gary L. Griffiths · August 28, 2010, 07:39 PM

I can't see any legal implication vis-a-vis 9mm vs. .357 Sig. Or .40 S&W or .45 ACP for that matter. Deadly force is deadly force, and if you're justified in using it, you're justified.

m&p45acp10+1 · August 28, 2010, 08:18 PM

Caliber is not the point in a self defense situation. It boils down to justifiable use of deadly force. As far as from a liability standpoint many LE agencies use .357 Sig as the department issued caliber. Tx DPS does.

golfnutrlv · August 28, 2010, 08:31 PM

Thanks for the insight so far guys. I tend to be a little paranoid about the legal aspects, and what can be used against me in court.

NavyLT · August 28, 2010, 09:03 PM

So do you think it would be a problem if you were carrying a .45 that you had to use if you had a .22 in the safe at home? Or if you were carrying a .357 loaded with all .357 mags instead of .38's to begin with?

knight0334 · August 28, 2010, 10:12 PM

Either you are justified to use deadly force or you aren't. That is the primary basis.

If you are justified, you are legal to use what tool you have in hand whether it be a .38spl, a knife, 12ga, a Ford bumper, a cannon, a baseball bat, a .30-30, a .357sig on a 9mm frame, etc, etc, etc..

Hook686 · August 29, 2010, 12:31 AM

Opinions expressed here are just that, opinions, and not reality. That includes this one. If you use a fire arm, and are charged with anything, it comes down to the opinion of the jury, the opinion of the District Attorney, the lawyers and judges involved. I also think it depends upon your jurisdiction. In San Francisco you just might be toast. In Texas it might go completely different.

johnwilliamson062 · August 29, 2010, 01:25 AM

You bought this conversion specifically to make your gun more deadly correct? The standard round used by the military in WAR wasn't enough for you, you needed a more powerful and more deadly round, didn't you?

Any lawyer can turn facts on end. If you use deadly force, even justifiably, you are probably screwed no matter the circumstances or fact.

Kreyzhorse · August 30, 2010, 07:08 AM

Like John said above, facts can get twisted pretty quickly.

I wouldn't worry about using the conversion kit but I would be worried that I only fired as a last resort and only as needed to protect myself or others from severe harm or death.

**Frank Ettin** · August 30, 2010, 10:23 AM

I don't think it would be a problem.

[1] Some gun modifications could raise concerns in the legal aftermath of a defensive gun use, but I don't see this as one of them. Your SIG P226 is available from the factory in .357 SIG. With the conversion kit, you're just turning you 9mm into a SIG you could have otherwise purchased in the first place.

[2] The .357 SIG is the standard issue cartridge of a number of police agencies.

Jim March · August 30, 2010, 01:53 PM

The total energy downrange with high-end 40S&W and 357Sig rounds is very similar. Total non-issue in my book. You switched for greater feed reliability from the bottleneck rounds, right? (And that IS a legit issue.)

Glenn E. Meyer · August 30, 2010, 02:36 PM

There's no guarantee about anything.

The basic principle from research and the real world seems to be that if your choice of action and equipment can be painted as to implicate that your action indicated a blood lust as compared to thoughtful self-defense, you can be in trouble.

That depends on jury characteristics also.

The 357 Sig is a round used by law enforcement and not a particularly extremist weapons choice.

If, God forbid, you end in court, you need a lawyer who is aware of the implications of weapons type at trial and can tell your story and defuse extreme implications.

The idea that if you are justified to use force, method doesn't matter doesn't really speak to the decision sequence.

The decision to take you to trial might be influenced by the DA and grand jury's view of your weapon in an ambiguous shoot.

So you go to trial and the same factors can influence a jury.

The worrisome path is not the GOOD SHOOT - it is the ambiguous shoot, where such factors come into play.

Double Naught Spy · August 30, 2010, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the insight so far guys. I tend to be a little paranoid about the legal aspects, and what can be used against me in court.

No doubt it will be used against you. Everything will be used against you. The type of gun, type of ammo, etc. will be used against you if somebody gets a chance to use it against you, regardless of how appropriate it might actually be. The question is if a conversion kit woud cause you more problems than whatever the original gun is and I don't see how that would be the case, though an aggressive lawyer might take more time trying to explain the conversion kit to the jury.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 30, 2010, 04:33 PM

One should be a touch paranoid about legal aspects.

Opinions on the Internet mean nothing.

A well prepared defensive gun user should:

1. Be aware of legalities through training and reading.
2. Have or get a lawyer who understands the specifics of firearms usage for your defense.
3. Have said lawyer be able to find appropriate experts. If you train with folks like Ayoob and others, you can have expertise at your disposal.

The worst thing to do is to assume that if someone says that if it is a good shoot then you will be OK.

You may be immediately cleared but you'd better get to an attorney ASAP.

All those folks on death row who said they were innocent and turned out to be innocent had an exciting time before they were cleared.

Thus, we might think the conversion is no big deal. However, you need to have a lawyer that can present this story from both a rational view point and an appearance/emotional viewpoint if that is needed in your defense.

ET. · September 4, 2010, 08:36 PM

I understand where you are coming from with this thread. I have a Glock 27 that I convert to a 357sig for Carry purposes. The 357sig penetrates a lot more than the 40 does. I will only carry it in a hollow point (good idea anyway with most calibers). If you shoot the 357sig and it passes thru your target and into someone else or their baby...well it could get bad. If you Kill someone that you didn't intend to, then you are in a heap of trouble. The legal implications could destroy you financially & emotionally. It is even more important to be sure the path is clear behind the perp before you shoot with a 357sig.

August 28, 2010, 07:25 PM	#1
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Conversion Kit's Legal Implications if used for SD. Hi everyone, looking for some opinions, reads, ideas regarding conversion kits. I own a Sig P226 E2 in 9mm. I have been saving up for a .357 Sig Caliber Exchange kit from Sig, and this question has been brewing in my mind. What are the legal issues if I ever had to defend my life with the .357 Sig Conversion kit? The ammunition would be factory if it was carried. I really don't think I will carry .357 that much, but just been thinking. The real idea of the kit is to give me a fun caliber to shoot, and a good woods gun without having the buy another gun. Thoughts, ideas?? __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

August 28, 2010, 07:38 PM	#2
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof As longs it's a legally purchased conversion, I can't see any possible problems. I bought a 40 S&W barrel and slide for my M9 and regularly switch back and forth, I also have a 45 BH convertable in 45Lc and 45 Acp, as well as a Single 6 in 22Lr and 22 mag.

August 28, 2010, 07:39 PM	#3
Gary L. Griffiths Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: AZ, WA Posts: 1,466	I can't see any legal implication vis-a-vis 9mm vs. .357 Sig. Or .40 S&W or .45 ACP for that matter. Deadly force is deadly force, and if you're justified in using it, you're justified. __________________ Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill)

August 28, 2010, 08:18 PM	#4
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Caliber is not the point in a self defense situation. It boils down to justifiable use of deadly force. As far as from a liability standpoint many LE agencies use .357 Sig as the department issued caliber. Tx DPS does. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

August 28, 2010, 08:31 PM	#5
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Thanks for the insight so far guys. I tend to be a little paranoid about the legal aspects, and what can be used against me in court. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

August 28, 2010, 09:03 PM	#6
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	So do you think it would be a problem if you were carrying a .45 that you had to use if you had a .22 in the safe at home? Or if you were carrying a .357 loaded with all .357 mags instead of .38's to begin with?

August 28, 2010, 10:12 PM	#7
knight0334 Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2006 Location: Brookville, PA Posts: 442	Either you are justified to use deadly force or you aren't. That is the primary basis. If you are justified, you are legal to use what tool you have in hand whether it be a .38spl, a knife, 12ga, a Ford bumper, a cannon, a baseball bat, a .30-30, a .357sig on a 9mm frame, etc, etc, etc..

August 29, 2010, 12:31 AM	#8
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	Opinions expressed here are just that, opinions, and not reality. That includes this one. If you use a fire arm, and are charged with anything, it comes down to the opinion of the jury, the opinion of the District Attorney, the lawyers and judges involved. I also think it depends upon your jurisdiction. In San Francisco you just might be toast. In Texas it might go completely different. __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

August 29, 2010, 01:25 AM	#9
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	You bought this conversion specifically to make your gun more deadly correct? The standard round used by the military in WAR wasn't enough for you, you needed a more powerful and more deadly round, didn't you? Any lawyer can turn facts on end. If you use deadly force, even justifiably, you are probably screwed no matter the circumstances or fact.

August 30, 2010, 07:08 AM	#10
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	Like John said above, facts can get twisted pretty quickly. I wouldn't worry about using the conversion kit but I would be worried that I only fired as a last resort and only as needed to protect myself or others from severe harm or death. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

August 30, 2010, 10:23 AM	#11
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	I don't think it would be a problem. [1] Some gun modifications could raise concerns in the legal aftermath of a defensive gun use, but I don't see this as one of them. Your SIG P226 is available from the factory in .357 SIG. With the conversion kit, you're just turning you 9mm into a SIG you could have otherwise purchased in the first place. [2] The .357 SIG is the standard issue cartridge of a number of police agencies.

August 30, 2010, 01:53 PM	#12
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	The total energy downrange with high-end 40S&W and 357Sig rounds is very similar. Total non-issue in my book. You switched for greater feed reliability from the bottleneck rounds, right? (And that IS a legit issue.) __________________ Jim March

August 30, 2010, 02:36 PM	#13
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	There's no guarantee about anything. The basic principle from research and the real world seems to be that if your choice of action and equipment can be painted as to implicate that your action indicated a blood lust as compared to thoughtful self-defense, you can be in trouble. That depends on jury characteristics also. The 357 Sig is a round used by law enforcement and not a particularly extremist weapons choice. If, God forbid, you end in court, you need a lawyer who is aware of the implications of weapons type at trial and can tell your story and defuse extreme implications. The idea that if you are justified to use force, method doesn't matter doesn't really speak to the decision sequence. The decision to take you to trial might be influenced by the DA and grand jury's view of your weapon in an ambiguous shoot. So you go to trial and the same factors can influence a jury. The worrisome path is not the GOOD SHOOT - it is the ambiguous shoot, where such factors come into play. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 30, 2010, 04:33 PM	#15
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	One should be a touch paranoid about legal aspects. Opinions on the Internet mean nothing. A well prepared defensive gun user should: 1. Be aware of legalities through training and reading. 2. Have or get a lawyer who understands the specifics of firearms usage for your defense. 3. Have said lawyer be able to find appropriate experts. If you train with folks like Ayoob and others, you can have expertise at your disposal. The worst thing to do is to assume that if someone says that if it is a good shoot then you will be OK. You may be immediately cleared but you'd better get to an attorney ASAP. All those folks on death row who said they were innocent and turned out to be innocent had an exciting time before they were cleared. Thus, we might think the conversion is no big deal. However, you need to have a lawyer that can present this story from both a rational view point and an appearance/emotional viewpoint if that is needed in your defense. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 4, 2010, 08:36 PM	#16
ET. Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2010 Location: Savannah, Ga. Posts: 638	I understand where you are coming from with this thread. I have a Glock 27 that I convert to a 357sig for Carry purposes. The 357sig penetrates a lot more than the 40 does. I will only carry it in a hollow point (good idea anyway with most calibers). If you shoot the 357sig and it passes thru your target and into someone else or their baby...well it could get bad. If you Kill someone that you didn't intend to, then you are in a heap of trouble. The legal implications could destroy you financially & emotionally. It is even more important to be sure the path is clear behind the perp before you shoot with a 357sig. __________________ Soldiers are dying every day to protect our freedoms. The least we can do is vote.