.380?

[MoArk Willy]

I like my bodyguard .380, I carry it many ways depending on weather IE: how I am dressed.
I like the belly band most of the time since I work in overalls most often on jobs and around the shop. I link the ankle carry for dress when I wear long pants. In the summer it's usually in a fanny pack.
But if I was to purchase another .380 it would be the Sig. Not cheap but very nice guns, easy to rack and what a .380 should be. I do have a Bersa Thunder though also in .380 but it's a little too large for pocket carry. It's nice on the belt.

[MisterCrabby]

I carry the Two. Better trigger. Slide Lock. Use defensive ammo like critical defense and you have a convincing and effective deterrent.

You have to practice with the two finger grip. If you pocket carry, which I do, the sleeve it comes with is usable. But requires wearing in and practice.

Very convenient and comfortable. Simple and reliable.

[CDW4ME]

Originally Posted by davidsog

My personal preference too. However I was rather surprised by the quantifiable data.

In that data 32 acp has better actual incapacitated by one shot % than 9mm, 40, 45. Yea, right.
Common sense that a bigger hole more likely to generate desired result quicker than smaller hole in the same place.

[unclejack37]

I believe everyone should carry whatever they feel good about. I've found for me the smaller sized pocket guns are a bit snappy for their calibre but most times they're exactly what's needed for the situation. My normal EDC is a Beretta Nano, 9mm. When I'm on my MC I carry a Beretta 950 jetfire 25 auto that fits my pocket perfectly. It's what works at the time.

[davidsog]

In that data 32 acp has better actual incapacitated by one shot % than 9mm, 40, 45. Yea, right.

I would say read the article. Otherwise we are just going to keep reposting the same information, lol.
Incapacitated does not mean dead or even incapable of continued violence. It just means the attacker stopped the attack.

Most people do not like any bullet hole in their body.

That an attacker looked at the new hole in their skin, got mad about it, and continued their attack at double the rate of larger caliber rounds speaks volumes about the value of making a larger hole in the first place.

[CDW4ME]

Originally Posted by davidsog

I would say read the article. Otherwise we are just going to keep reposting the same information, lol.
Incapacitated does not mean dead or even incapable of continued violence. It just means the attacker stopped the attack.

According to that data 32 acp > all other pistol calibers. LOL
Data says I'm doing it wrong carrying a Glock 21, better protected with Kel-Tec 32

[Sharkbite]

According to that data 32 acp > all other pistol calibers.

Consider the source.....

[Bill DeShivs]

Hole size means very little in the real world.
Outside of psychological stops, the only sure stop is a central nervous system shot. It really doesn't matter if the CNS shot is a .22 or a .45.
I know this is over most people's heads.

Bigger is better-but not very much better. ANY gun is better than no gun.

[K_Mac]

Based on the one shot chart you could draw the conclusion that it suggests .32 is the preferred caliber. That is not the conclusion of the study:

Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful.

I do agree that having a gun is priority one and that there is little difference in service calbers. 380 is the smallest round I carry, but if I had a 6 shot revolver in. 327 mag I would sometimes carry it. 9 mm is my preferred EDC based on my experience and research. Knowing ones abilities and limitations with training and practice to minimize those limitations is the key.

[MandolinMan]

the Greg Ellifritz study has been discussed in detail before in other threads. His statistics may be interesting reading, but that's about it.

[KyJim]

Accuracy is a base fundamental with every lethality study I have seen concluding the same thing. At close ranges, shot placement is much more important than caliber.

davidsog ---

You seem to like quoting snippets out-of-context. I referred to the high level of one-shot incapacitation rate for .22 caliber pistols (60%) but only 76% accuracy (torso or head shot). Larger calibers had a similar or higher accuracy rate but lower one shot incapacitation rate. For example, the .45 acp had an 85% accuracy rate but only a one-shot incapacitation rate of 51%. That indicates either one of three things to me. First, the data could be all screwed up. Second, describing accuracy as a hit to the torso or head is too broad to be useful. Assuming neither of these to be the case, then some other factor is at play and I hypothesized what one of those factors might be.

Now, explain to me how a smaller, less powerful caliber that is shot less accurately creates a higher one-shot incapacitation rate than a larger, more powerful caliber that is shot more accurately. One has to look at this sort of "study" with a critical eye.

[Sharkbite]

You seem to like quoting snippets out-of-context.

I think his whole understanding of terminal ballistics is “out of context”.

[HighValleyRanch]

Now, explain to me how a smaller, less powerful caliber that is shot less accurately creates a higher one-shot incapacitation rate than a larger, more powerful caliber that is shot more accurately. One has to look at this sort of "study" with a critical eye.

It's been a while, but I did sit through the whole video. I believe that the statistics were based on actual cases, but the levels were based off the amount of cases per caliber. So since less cases involved .32 acp, but resulted in a higher rate for say 40 cases versus the 9mm which being a common caliber had many more case studies to affect the percentage. If that makes any sense to you.

[Ibmikey]

I have 25-30 pistols in .380 caliber and normally carry a Sig 238 or Kimber micro 380. Before retirement carried a .380 as a back up to service pistol, I have utmost confidence in my pistols and if fired placement of shot is paramount.

[KyJim]

It's been a while, but I did sit through the whole video. I believe that the statistics were based on actual cases, but the levels were based off the amount of cases per caliber. So since less cases involved .32 acp, but resulted in a higher rate for say 40 cases versus the 9mm which being a common caliber had many more case studies to affect the percentage. If that makes any sense to you

If that's the explanation, that means the data is invalid; i.e., the sample is too small, in at least some calibers, to be meaningful. I don't have the background in statistics to go any further than that dubious observation.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by KyJim

If that's the explanation, that means the data is invalid; i.e., the sample is too small, in at least some calibers, to be meaningful. I don't have the background in statistics to go any further than that dubious observation.

Data is data; the validity of inferences drawn from analyzing data depends on sample or population size.

[davidsog]

Data is data; the validity of inferences drawn from analyzing data depends on sample or population size.

Yep. It is not worth it to argue about. The data is there and the problem in the past is a lack of data. The author was in a good position as a police firearms instructor to gather it and until a larger sample size is compiled the conclusions stand outside of arbitrary feelings or conjecture.

That lack of data has been an impediment to the military’s effort to overcome the lack in lethality in 5.56mm experienced on the battlefield. The civilian sector simply did not have enough data.

[Winny]

Sure is an easy piece to conceal, at a very pocket-friendly price to boot.

I like the S&W shield or Sig p365 for pocket carry, personally. But I'm a 9mm enthusiast and always have rounds on hand, whereas when I had my LCP I'd always have to run out and buy ammo before the range and it got annoying.

9mm and .380 aren't THAT different as noted above, but for me 9mm just made more sense.

[TheGunGeek]

I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread yet, however there has been significant advances in .380 with Underwood ammo. The Underwood "extreme defender" and "extreme penetrator" lines make the .380 a good SD round, and I'm comfortable carrying it based on the ballistic performance, and extensive testing done on the round. The Defender line meets the FBI testing protocols (14-16"), and the Penetrator (barrier) line is designed to exceed 18" of penetration. The Lehigh bullet doesn't rely on expansion to work, which is typically the downfall in hollow points with .380.

[nanney1]

Ordered a bellyband which arrived today (ComforTac). Went running with my smallest pistol, a Glock 43. Seemed to work well. The LCP would be smaller and lighter for running, and a pocket carry option, but for now, I'll try out running with the G43.

[kymasabe]

Me? I'm seriously undergunned with my keltec P32 in my pocket, but it's better than nothing, and is nice and light. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be shot with it.

[Andy Blozinski]

.380s have been reliably doing a great job for over 100 years. While a .454 Casull may do a better job on non-critical hits, any decently placed shot from a .380 will do just as well at 7 yards as other typically used pistol rounds.

[gbran]

I have two. A Kahr P380 which is a dream to carry, the slide is stiff, the trigger is just so-so, but it's not yet dependable. They say I have to run 200 rounds before it becomes reliable.

My 2nd and favorite is the Sig P238. A tad bigger than the Kahr. The trigger is fantastic and it's rock solid reliable.

[Ibmikey]

For a concealable single action 380 pistol the Sig P 238 cannot be beaten, with the Kimber Micro running a close second. For dropping in a pocket the S&W Bodyguard just cannot be beat.
Small nine mm pistols find the Sig P 938 and Kimber Micro 9 at the top of my list for reliability, concealability and ease of shooting (low recoil). None of the pistols I have listed required firing “200 rounds” to make them function properly, they worked right out of the box.

[CDR_Glock]

If it’s good enough for James Bond, European police and South American LEO, it can’t be too bad, right?

I shot the LCP and P3AT and the recoil was fierce because of the width of the grip. If you can stomach the cost, the Sig P238 is lighter than a S&W 442 but handles recoil very well. Even a Glock 42 in 380 is pretty darn accurate and handles recoil like a champ. Both of these, can ring steel plates at 25 yards for me.j

Just a little bigger though, and you’re in the 9 mm territory with a Glock 43, Sig P365, Sig P938.

For the most discrete carry of all, it would be hard to beat the North American Arms 22 Magnum. I carry 2 at once. With proper technique, 7-10 yards by point shooting is achievable. If I’m wearing business dress or formal, I usually carry these two, myself.

As for comparing caliber X to Caliber Y, just having a handgun is better than nothing. It is likely someone with a knife attacking you is not going to want to have a dose of lead.

Also, as you’re running, if you see someone suspicious or suspicious activity, you can just turn around long before getting into a confrontation.

Only thing that I foresee is unavoidable is a mountain lion attack as they’re cunning. They attack from behind. Just avoid running in the woods, I say.

Lastly, if you have to draw and fire, shot placement is critical. These smaller calibers are better for control and accuracy than some bigger caliber other than a Single Action 1911 45 ACP. A shot to the face or neck if you can pull it off is better than a gut or chest shot because of depth of penetration for vital structures.

Lastly, you really need to practice shooting these micro guns one handed. Most people I observe shooting shoot with two. It is unrealistic and unwise. It is more likely you will have to do it with one hand.

Whatever you consider, at least rent or try a friend’s firearm first. It is better to know beforehand, rather than making a bigger financial mistake by buying something that turns into a disappointment.


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