Serious Social Shotgun

cslinger · July 15, 2002, 02:37 PM

Ok I am looking to buy an 18" barrel 12 gauge for home defense. I am up in the air between the Remington 870 Marine Magnum and the Benelli Nova Special Purpose.

Any suggestions, horror stories etc. I have gone through the archives but found very little on the specific models.

From a purely little kid perspective, say what you want we are all really just big kids with expensive toys that require more responsibility to use, I think the 870 Marine is a mighty fine, intimidating firearm.

Ok I know both are fine shotguns and I know the 870 is pretty much godlike in some circles. Let me know what you think.

Thanks

Chris

HKguy9 · July 15, 2002, 04:12 PM

Welcome to the forums.

My next purchase will be a Benelli Nova, though I see some drawbacks to the Remmy.

1. No foreend light mount avail.
2. No 6-rd sidesaddle, only 4-rd.

I like the sights on the Nova a lot better, and I think it has a lot more character than the 870 (yes, it matters! to me at least), and the Benelli doesn't come with a stupid nub that you have to grind off to put 2 more rounds in it. The Remington will cost more than the Beneli when I get it to be what I want it to be (ghost rings, smoother action) and the Benelli, you can transition to slugs easier. Don't know how useful that is in real life, but you need it at shotgun matches. Still, it's just a backup for my M1 Super 90.

Dave McC · July 15, 2002, 04:21 PM

Any of the Big Four( Remington, Winchester, Ithaca or Mossberg) or the Nova will make a great Serious shotgun.

I,of course, think the 870's the best idea since indoor plumbing, but I doubt I'd be much less effective with any of the others.

More important than the make is the mindset. Determine to practice, think, and get used to Condition Yellow, this will do more good than all the bells and whistles that ST and Vang.etc, make.

Use any of those shotguns until it feels like a body part, and you're ready.

And anyone disagreeing with this is invited to a challenge.

Use ANY shotgun with ANY mods and addons you want. You decide the COF,target and ammo used.

I'll use Frankenstein, which has a bead sight, no mag extension, no fancy gunsmithing outside a long cone.

We'll shoot for score, time decides ties. Loser buys the coffee and Krispy Kremes. Results get posted right here.

Any takers? Heh, heh, heh....

9x45 · July 15, 2002, 04:44 PM

Any of the shotguns that run good would work. That's Remington, Winchester, the Beretta/Benelli/H&K autos, Mossberg and Ithacas. Decide whether you want an auto or pump.

Dave, I don't know if you shoot competively in USPSA 3-gun or SOF, but a bet like that will get you into serious debt for coffee and donuts.

9x45 · July 15, 2002, 04:51 PM

Dave, since I'm in California, take your shotgun and your bet to these USPSA clubs and see how you do...

MARYLAND PRACTICAL SHOOTERS ASSN
Section: VA Area: 8 Club Number: VA13
ELDERSBURG, MD 21784-6545

ST CHARLES SPORTSMANS CLUB
Section: VA Area: 8 Club Number: VA15
PORT TOBACCO, MD 20667

EASTERN SHORE PRACTICAL SHOOTERS
Section: VA Area: 8 Club Number: VA18
EASTON, MD 21601

C.R.Sam · July 15, 2002, 05:20 PM

Agree with Dave.
Tis the shooter, not the gun.
Providing the gun is functional.

Sam

cslinger · July 15, 2002, 06:29 PM

Thanks for the advice. Really I just wanted to know if there were any mechanical horror stories.

I completely agree with all of you. I shoot once a week with most of my guns and realize that is isn't like riding a bike. You can, at least your muscles can forget how to shoot.

You can put a six shell carrier on the buttstock. I know I have seen them somewhere.

I am not a gee whiz gizmo kind of guy when it comes to my guns. I do like the Remington Marine Magnum because of the afore mentioned character but I will not gun store commando it out.

I have firearms that I consider home defense and I practice and plan for that scenario but the reality of it is I am the typical gun nut that wants to collect them all. I like to shoot for fun so all my firearms are dual purpose. Weapons if need be, and I am confident in my abilities to employ them as such, and big boy toys that give me a grin every time I pull the trigger or even clean them.

Once again thanks for the advice. I will take you up on your challange. You will kick my butt, but hey I like donuts so what the hell.

Chris

KSFreeman · July 15, 2002, 06:57 PM

All guns have pros and cons. I shot Ronin's Nova. Solid gun. The big loading port eases tac loads. However, I dislike the huge foreend.

I prefer the Remington: easy to strip, parts are everywhere, and, most of all, they are friendly to manipulate. You will handle and load your weapon a lot. Buttons, switches, and neon/xeon laser/phasers are not conducive to gun handling.

Mandatory: light, good sights and good trigger; Butt cuffs give me an ouchie when I have to switch sides. I'd eschew the GSC gun gamey mags that make the weapon heavier and more prone to mal. I'd also avoid the lasers, phasers and wind speed indicators that people put on them. YMMV.

Whatever you choose. Buy 4 of them, pattern them, and seek schooling. Good shooting!

Dave McC · July 16, 2002, 03:09 AM

9X45, between instructing,competition,demos, practice, assigment to a HRT,etc, I've fired thousands of rounds at "Practical" targets under field conditions. I'm not blowing smoke.

And, I've shot at St Charles. Don't shoot much practical anymore, I'm retired now and I was kinda overtrained.

And while some of the hotshots out today can beat me and my non designer 870s, most of those know the very thing I'm saying here.

Technology is a D*amn poor substitute for expertise.

It's the pianist that makes the music, not the piano.

Lt B D McCracken, Md Dept of Public Safety and Correctional Services (Ret)....

9x45 · July 16, 2002, 12:33 PM

Dave, I'm not doubting your ability. It's just that most shotgun competitions are won by reloading so the race guns do have an advantage. It's no substitute for trigger time though.

Chuck Dye · July 16, 2002, 01:14 PM

I am VERY curious to see what will become of the Aguila 1 1/2" 12 gauge and their Poseidon shotguns I note with interest that all of the firearms have disappeared from http://www.aguilammo.com

Hemicuda · July 16, 2002, 02:02 PM

Note to whomever pointed out the "nub" in the 870 that has to be removed...

on MY marine magnum, it came FROM THE FACTORY with a 2 shot extension tube, and NO NUB... no grinding necessary...

and though it is not a 6 shot sidesaddle, I found a 5 shot unit that went on the left side of the action with NO MAJIOR MODS...

I'd pick the 870 MM, but I'm biased, as I own one for home defense!

Dave McC · July 16, 2002, 04:29 PM

9, Amen!

Back in the day,many LE focussed COFS were 4 targets,shot from Cruiser Ready. Another approach, similar to our qualifier, was to shoot 4 rounds , "Combat Load" a fifth round, and shoot that one. This was realistic.

About the time I had too much rank and age to do much of this, the race stuff started creeping in. 1100s, GR sights, mag extensions, etc. As the equipment moved from issue, the utility shrank.

Alas and alack, I fear "Practical" shotgunning is going the way of IPSC, a good game but not realistic training for LEOS and citizens alike.

9x45 · July 18, 2002, 09:06 PM

Dave,
I couldn't agree with you more. But it is a game, and not training. So the question is, do you want to win, or want to practice your training. I do like to shoot my Remington Model 48 for training!!! And without fail, I try to pull the trigger on the 6th round.... Time is a positive quantity, aging will come come. We will all age, the question is at what rate? Aging is like split times, some are faster than others.... I do miss the ability to see bullet holes at 25 yards

Bruce626 · July 18, 2002, 09:15 PM

[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]... you mean to tell me that shotgunners age too? I just joined this forum to achieve endless yute. (no rear sight to worry about... just find the bead!)
--Bruce.

C.R.Sam · July 18, 2002, 11:32 PM

"Aging will come."

Oh, wondered what happened.

Thanks

Sam

Dave McC · July 19, 2002, 03:43 AM

9, realistic games make good training. That COF, fired as one moves toward and gets behind cover, is good practice and training.

Even trap doubles, as isolated as it is from the real world, can be good training. If one can rapidly acquire a target, fire and repeat on another 4 inch disc moving at 35-50 MPH in another direction, one would have little trouble doing so on much larger, slower targets.

"Do you want to win, or want to practice your training?".

What I most want to win is any A/S scenario coming my way.

July 15, 2002, 02:37 PM	#1
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	Serious Social Shotgun Ok I am looking to buy an 18" barrel 12 gauge for home defense. I am up in the air between the Remington 870 Marine Magnum and the Benelli Nova Special Purpose. Any suggestions, horror stories etc. I have gone through the archives but found very little on the specific models. From a purely little kid perspective, say what you want we are all really just big kids with expensive toys that require more responsibility to use, I think the 870 Marine is a mighty fine, intimidating firearm. Ok I know both are fine shotguns and I know the 870 is pretty much godlike in some circles. Let me know what you think. Thanks Chris __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

July 15, 2002, 04:12 PM	#2
HKguy9 Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2001 Posts: 2,132	Welcome to the forums. My next purchase will be a Benelli Nova, though I see some drawbacks to the Remmy. 1. No foreend light mount avail. 2. No 6-rd sidesaddle, only 4-rd. I like the sights on the Nova a lot better, and I think it has a lot more character than the 870 (yes, it matters! to me at least), and the Benelli doesn't come with a stupid nub that you have to grind off to put 2 more rounds in it. The Remington will cost more than the Beneli when I get it to be what I want it to be (ghost rings, smoother action) and the Benelli, you can transition to slugs easier. Don't know how useful that is in real life, but you need it at shotgun matches. Still, it's just a backup for my M1 Super 90. __________________ P7M8, VP9

July 15, 2002, 06:29 PM	#7
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	Thanks for the advice. Really I just wanted to know if there were any mechanical horror stories. I completely agree with all of you. I shoot once a week with most of my guns and realize that is isn't like riding a bike. You can, at least your muscles can forget how to shoot. You can put a six shell carrier on the buttstock. I know I have seen them somewhere. I am not a gee whiz gizmo kind of guy when it comes to my guns. I do like the Remington Marine Magnum because of the afore mentioned character but I will not gun store commando it out. I have firearms that I consider home defense and I practice and plan for that scenario but the reality of it is I am the typical gun nut that wants to collect them all. I like to shoot for fun so all my firearms are dual purpose. Weapons if need be, and I am confident in my abilities to employ them as such, and big boy toys that give me a grin every time I pull the trigger or even clean them. Once again thanks for the advice. I will take you up on your challange. You will kick my butt, but hey I like donuts so what the hell. Chris __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

July 15, 2002, 06:57 PM	#8
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	All guns have pros and cons. I shot Ronin's Nova. Solid gun. The big loading port eases tac loads. However, I dislike the huge foreend. I prefer the Remington: easy to strip, parts are everywhere, and, most of all, they are friendly to manipulate. You will handle and load your weapon a lot. Buttons, switches, and neon/xeon laser/phasers are not conducive to gun handling. Mandatory: light, good sights and good trigger; Butt cuffs give me an ouchie when I have to switch sides. I'd eschew the GSC gun gamey mags that make the weapon heavier and more prone to mal. I'd also avoid the lasers, phasers and wind speed indicators that people put on them. YMMV. Whatever you choose. Buy 4 of them, pattern them, and seek schooling. Good shooting! __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

July 16, 2002, 01:14 PM	#11
Chuck Dye Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2002 Location: Oregon-The wet side. Posts: 949	I am VERY curious to see what will become of the Aguila 1 1/2" 12 gauge and their Poseidon shotguns I note with interest that all of the firearms have disappeared from http://www.aguilammo.com __________________ Gee, I'd love to see your data!

July 15, 2002, 04:21 PM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Any of the Big Four( Remington, Winchester, Ithaca or Mossberg) or the Nova will make a great Serious shotgun. I,of course, think the 870's the best idea since indoor plumbing, but I doubt I'd be much less effective with any of the others. More important than the make is the mindset. Determine to practice, think, and get used to Condition Yellow, this will do more good than all the bells and whistles that ST and Vang.etc, make. Use any of those shotguns until it feels like a body part, and you're ready. And anyone disagreeing with this is invited to a challenge. Use ANY shotgun with ANY mods and addons you want. You decide the COF,target and ammo used. I'll use Frankenstein, which has a bead sight, no mag extension, no fancy gunsmithing outside a long cone. We'll shoot for score, time decides ties. Loser buys the coffee and Krispy Kremes. Results get posted right here. Any takers? Heh, heh, heh....

July 15, 2002, 04:44 PM	#4
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Any of the shotguns that run good would work. That's Remington, Winchester, the Beretta/Benelli/H&K autos, Mossberg and Ithacas. Decide whether you want an auto or pump. Dave, I don't know if you shoot competively in USPSA 3-gun or SOF, but a bet like that will get you into serious debt for coffee and donuts.

July 15, 2002, 04:51 PM	#5
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Dave, since I'm in California, take your shotgun and your bet to these USPSA clubs and see how you do... MARYLAND PRACTICAL SHOOTERS ASSN Section: VA Area: 8 Club Number: VA13 ELDERSBURG, MD 21784-6545 ST CHARLES SPORTSMANS CLUB Section: VA Area: 8 Club Number: VA15 PORT TOBACCO, MD 20667 EASTERN SHORE PRACTICAL SHOOTERS Section: VA Area: 8 Club Number: VA18 EASTON, MD 21601

July 15, 2002, 05:20 PM	#6
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Agree with Dave. Tis the shooter, not the gun. Providing the gun is functional. Sam

July 16, 2002, 03:09 AM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	9X45, between instructing,competition,demos, practice, assigment to a HRT,etc, I've fired thousands of rounds at "Practical" targets under field conditions. I'm not blowing smoke. And, I've shot at St Charles. Don't shoot much practical anymore, I'm retired now and I was kinda overtrained. And while some of the hotshots out today can beat me and my non designer 870s, most of those know the very thing I'm saying here. Technology is a D*amn poor substitute for expertise. It's the pianist that makes the music, not the piano. Lt B D McCracken, Md Dept of Public Safety and Correctional Services (Ret)....

July 16, 2002, 12:33 PM	#10
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Dave, I'm not doubting your ability. It's just that most shotgun competitions are won by reloading so the race guns do have an advantage. It's no substitute for trigger time though.

July 16, 2002, 02:02 PM	#12
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	Note to whomever pointed out the "nub" in the 870 that has to be removed... on MY marine magnum, it came FROM THE FACTORY with a 2 shot extension tube, and NO NUB... no grinding necessary... and though it is not a 6 shot sidesaddle, I found a 5 shot unit that went on the left side of the action with NO MAJIOR MODS... I'd pick the 870 MM, but I'm biased, as I own one for home defense! __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

July 16, 2002, 04:29 PM	#13
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	9, Amen! Back in the day,many LE focussed COFS were 4 targets,shot from Cruiser Ready. Another approach, similar to our qualifier, was to shoot 4 rounds , "Combat Load" a fifth round, and shoot that one. This was realistic. About the time I had too much rank and age to do much of this, the race stuff started creeping in. 1100s, GR sights, mag extensions, etc. As the equipment moved from issue, the utility shrank. Alas and alack, I fear "Practical" shotgunning is going the way of IPSC, a good game but not realistic training for LEOS and citizens alike.

July 18, 2002, 09:06 PM	#14
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Dave, I couldn't agree with you more. But it is a game, and not training. So the question is, do you want to win, or want to practice your training. I do like to shoot my Remington Model 48 for training!!! And without fail, I try to pull the trigger on the 6th round.... Time is a positive quantity, aging will come come. We will all age, the question is at what rate? Aging is like split times, some are faster than others.... I do miss the ability to see bullet holes at 25 yards

July 18, 2002, 09:15 PM	#15
Bruce626 Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Handgun-Free Chicago thanks to Gun-grabber Daley Posts: 167	[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]... you mean to tell me that shotgunners age too? I just joined this forum to achieve endless yute. (no rear sight to worry about... just find the bead!) --Bruce.

July 18, 2002, 11:32 PM	#16
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	"Aging will come." Oh, wondered what happened. Thanks Sam

July 19, 2002, 03:43 AM	#17
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	9, realistic games make good training. That COF, fired as one moves toward and gets behind cover, is good practice and training. Even trap doubles, as isolated as it is from the real world, can be good training. If one can rapidly acquire a target, fire and repeat on another 4 inch disc moving at 35-50 MPH in another direction, one would have little trouble doing so on much larger, slower targets. "Do you want to win, or want to practice your training?". What I most want to win is any A/S scenario coming my way.