Remmington 1858 Revolver Dates ?

[82YRMAN]

Hi, this is my first time on a forum site, please forgive any errors.
My friend and I are muzzle loaders over here in England, we shoot mainly rifles and shotguns, we have just acquired a pair of Remmington 1856 revolvers that were found in a sack in the back of an old car that has not been touched for at least 40 years, they were completely rusted and sized, we like a challenge and to our surprise after many hours of cleaning and making springs (springs were the only parts we could not recover) they are coming back to life and we hope to have them back in shoot-able condition over the next few weeks.
We are hoping that someone can help us dating them ?
They have stamped on the barrel "Patented Sept 14 1856 E.Remmington and Son Illion New York" the first has a serial number of 17041 the second has 24160.
Can anyone help with info or advise on where we can find out from ?

[Doc Hoy]

What a find.

[mykeal]

The stamp on the barrel should (and probably does) read "Patented Sept. 14, 1858...", not 1856. And I assume the misspelling of Remington is an error on your part.

An excellent resource for researching your guns is Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and Their Values; any edition should be sufficient. A copy can probably be found in a good library or purchased from amazon.com.

[James K]

The caliber is not given but if it is .44, the guns are the Remington New Model Army (no, no connection with Cromwell); if in .36 caliber, they are the New Model Navy. In the U.S., .44 caliber was considered the Army caliber; the Navy (which didn't have to shoot horses) usually used the .36 caliber. In fact, of course, there was no hard and fast rule, and both services used both calibers.

Both guns are called "Model 1858" by collectors because of the patent date, but Remington did not use that nomenclature, nor did the U.S. Army, which bought some 122,000 44's and 28,000 Navy revolvers during the American Civil War. They were also a favorite of Confederate forces when they were able to capture them. In spite of the "Model 1858" designation, none were actually made until 1863, so they came on the scene later than the more common Colt revolvers. Both models were made, in percussion, until the 1870's.

Jim

[Dan_D]

As Mykeal pointed out, Flayderman's is a good place to start and is probably the most easily accessed. Many sections are available via google books.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7py...5e-006&f=false
However, if you really want to explore the evolution of the percussion Remington handguns, may I suggest Donald Ware's excellent work Remington Army and Navy Revolvers 1861-1888 available from amazon among other places. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Remington-Ar...vers+1861-1888
According to his research, the gun with serial 17041 would have been made in
March 1863 and serial 24160 in May 1863. Both are rather early New Models and should exhibit all the characteristic features of the fully evolved new model except for a dovetailed brass/german silver front sight, rather than a pinched steel version. Is that correct?
Best of luck in your project. I'd love to see the results (and any other pics of the process)
I hope this helps,
Dan

[82YRMAN]

Hi, thanks for the fast response to my questions, yes the date should have been 1858 not 56 and Remington with 2m's was just bad spelling be me, guess I should keep my fingers on a trigger not a keyboard!!!!
The link to Flayderman's guide on Google was great thanks Dan.
Both of the guns are 44's and have the dovetailed Brass/ German Silver sights, I do have some photos of them unfortunately not from the start, we didn't think they would turn out to be any good, when I find out how attach them I will post them.
Thanks Keith

[Dan_D]

Glad I could help.
Let me know if I can be of any further assistance .
I'll look forward to seeing those pics,
Dan

[82YRMAN]

Hi tried to upload photos, unfortunately I had left my camera set on the highest setting so photos over 3.5 MB each and will not upload,I will take some more and post them, but it will be next week as they are at my friends house, he is the one who does all the work in his shed,( he does the work I do the talking) he is 82 years old and has just taken me on at 64 as his apprentice but he doesn't hold to much hope for me.
Keith

[BirchOrr]

... and like Doc said, What a find!

All the best to you sir.

Birch

[Dan_D]

Keith,
Thanks for trying.
I sent you a PM about uploading them.
Thanks,
Dan

[bedbugbilly]

Congrats on your find and the best of luck on your "project". And before I forget, welcome to the forum!

Isn't it great when things like this surface!? Just goes to show you that there are still "treasures" out there to be found! I'm sure a lot of us will be following your adventure as you restore these and hopefully some photos will be up soon so we all can drool!

[82YRMAN]

Hi I have at last managed to upload some photos.
Now we have cleaned the guns and started to assemble them we have noticed some differences, we assume that we have 1 old model Army and 1 new model Army.
It seems that I can only upload 3 photos each reply will send more in another message if this works.
Keith

[Hawg]

They both appear to be early New Models. The barrel addresses should bear that out.

[82YRMAN]

Hi some more photos

[82YRMAN]

Hi again even more photos

[mykeal]

I agree with Hawg.

[82YRMAN]

Hi sorry for not getting back sooner,thanks to Hawg & Mykeal for there reply's.
are these differences in the 2 guns usual? we have always believed that they were a standard design, with interchangeable parts, these differances my not affect the interchangability
The differences are as follows on the older gun
1) the sweep from the end of the sighting groove to where the barrel screws in is longer.
2) the cut out on the cylinder where you fit the caps is bigger.
3) the distance from butt strap at the base of the hammer to the top of the grip is longer.
4) the grip is smaller across the base, measured along the length
5) the loading leaver web is a different shape, the curve on the underside is less.
I hope you can understand my descriptions, look forward to hearing any comments.
Have attached some photos not of the revolvers but of a couple of guns made by my friend who is doing the work on the pistols, made from scratch in his shed at the bottom of his garden, hope you like them, the first is a 7 barrel volley gun, the second is a double barrel flintlock with a turn over barrel

[Hawg]

There were several design changes made during the development of the 58 from the original Beals model to the 1863 New Model, more commonly known as the 1858 Remington from the patent date.

the first has a serial number of 17041 the second has 24160.

17041 was made in March of 1863, 24160 was made in May of 1863

[Gaucho Gringo]

82YRMAN, I am glad to see that custom craftsmanship is not a dead art, yet. My grandfather was a machinist, he died over 60 years ago yet I am still using his tools and the things he built with them. I can cobble stuff together enough to get it to work, but I cannot hold a a candle to the work that you and your friend or my grandfather do or did. I can appreciate it as I know basically how it is done and the amount of time and effort to do it. Keep up the good work.

[82YRMAN]

Hi, I wish I could take some of the credit for these guns, he made them without any help from me , me I just tinker about with a few minor repairs, not on the same planet as him with skill or knowledge on English long guns, also the "old git" can still out shoot me.
His other guns he made include a 20 bore side by side flintlock, 12 bore single barrel flintlock, 12 bore match lock and a huge 4 bore flintlock fowling gun.
I have acquired from him the 20 bore double and the 4 bore flintlocks and consider myself very lucky to have done so, I shoot the 20 bore most weeks but the 4 bore needs a younger man than me to handle it more the a couple of time a year, it takes 10 drams of powder with 2 oz of lead and weighs a ton.

[indy1919]

I love the Percussion volley gun.,, May I ask how much does that brute weigh.. and what are the calibers of the barrels?????

Jumping in on this a bit late.. but cangrads on the remingtons.. They are very very nice


I really wish there was more known of the back and forth trade in firearms.. in the 1800s... Any idea on the numbers of C&B Colts & Remingtons went over to Europe??? Like wise any Idea on the number of firearms form Europe shipped over here?????

[Gaucho Gringo]

Indy 1919 if you could find old Customs records from the 1800's you would be able to find out. At least the ones being imported. Up until before WWI the US government main source of income was Custom's Duties. They kept matriculate records so they could get every penny coming to them, kind of the same mindset of the IRS today.

[82YRMAN]

Hi, the volley gun weighs in at 12.5 lbs and is 36 cal, we load each barrel with 22 grains of powder and either 3/8 oz shot or 2 - 36 cal balls, it has a punch like a Mike Tyson, which is why we only use it occasionally, 2 weeks at the gym before we shoot and a week to recover after.
Its about the same with the 4 bore, that weighs 13 lbs and is 56" long, they say that as you get older you get wiser but that's just not true!!!!!

[indy1919]

82YRMAN --- Well IMHO that is why your proper volley guns are on carriages..


all kidding aside, I like the look of that gun over the flintlock repro Nock versions that are out today.

It is just a beauty.... You would not by chance have any videos of it firing...

You now another solution to the volley gun Kicking would be to make it ripple fire ....