Why so little love for .41 Mag?? - Page 3

agtman · October 15, 2018, 11:58 AM

Quote:

So, you aren't interested in a .41 Magnum revolver, but you are interested in an autoloading cartridge in a revolver that almost mirrors the .41 Magnum?

Actually, the ballistics of the 10mm Magnum, as tested by John Taffin, exceed the .41 Mag in many loadings.

But the more interesting consequence of a 10mm wheelgun whose cylinder chambers have been reamed to 10mm Magnum specs, is that you can shoot three cartridges out of the same gun using the same moon clips: 10mm Mag, 10mm AUTO, and .40S&W.

Until the .41 Special came along, there was only one cartridge you could shoot out of any 41 mag revolver, whereas with a .357 mag you have two choices, as you do with a .44 mag.

TruthTellers · October 15, 2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie_98

For the same reason they make a .41 on the N-frame, and people buy them... because some people like different things. Also, the .44SPC is not a .41 Magnum, although you can probably handload it there... for a while.

Yup.

Quote:

The .32 has a longer history than the .41? You'll have to explain that to me...

.32 S&W Long was developed in 1896, the .41 Mag in 1964. The Henry .327 rifle is able to shoot .32 S&W Long and feed it from the magazine so long as it's not a wadcutter.

Quote:

So, you aren't interested in a .41 Magnum revolver, but you are interested in an autoloading cartridge in a revolver that almost mirrors the .41 Magnum? Uh, ok. As I said above... some people like different things.

Doesn't almost mirror, it's virtually identical.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt10mag.htm

The only thing that holds the 10mm Magnum back is it's stuck using the same bullets that .40 S&W and 10mm Auto use, which means unless you have a custom mold and cast, a heavy lead bullet like a 240 grain isn't available.

Real Gun · October 15, 2018, 01:16 PM

Quote:

That sounds perfectly logical, except that significant time had to pass for demand for a smaller, less punishing gun to be generated.

The "demand" (such as it was) was already there. It was what the gunwriters (who had police experience) had asked for. They felt a 40-ish (.41) caliber, 200gr-ish bullet at 900-ish fps would be very good for police work, and superior to the .38 Special. That was what they were asking for, but what Remington gave them was the .41 Magnum, and only the .41 Magnum.

Remember the era, late-50s, early 60s, semi-autos for police use (and the 9mm Luger) weren't even seriously considered. Another 20+ years had to pass (and the US military adopting the 9mm in the mid 80s) before the semi-auto began to dominate the police market.

But the process included time and experience showing that forcing the caliber into a large frame gun was not acceptable. The .41 Special, in S&W terms, would have required an L-frame for a better chance of being what an LEO might actually want to carry.

briandg · October 15, 2018, 04:25 PM

Quote:

I was just thinking that I have to keep my .41 Magnum no matter what...it is the only caliber I still have a lot of Silvertips left for. Should work on Zombies, and certainly on Werewolves.

You need to shout "these are silvertips!" neither one will figure out that it's just plating.

joed · October 15, 2018, 05:04 PM

The .41 Mag was designed for police use from what I remember. It was supposed to have less recoil then the .44 Mag and more power then the .357 Mag. Reality is it is a good cartridge that came along to late as most LE depts were leaving the revolver and transitioning to autos at the time the .41 came along.

It's a dying cartridge regardless of what others say. Seems like less manufacturers offer less for it now than they did 10 years ago.

briandg · October 15, 2018, 05:26 PM

Quote:

But the process included time and experience showing that forcing the caliber into a large frame gun was not acceptable. The .41 Special, in S&W terms, would have required an L-frame for a better chance of being what an LEO might actually want to carry.

This shows how long and tedious it has been getting the right military and police weapons. During the vietnam era the snipers used plain old hunting rifles with better barrels and tuning. During the thirties and earlier they moved to the .45 because suddenly people were in cars. we worked out the .38-44 and the .357 as law enforcement guns, at least as reported by some of the people who were part of the process. The .41 magnum was intended as highway patrol or rural patrol weapon, again as reported by some people who were involved. Too big for hip carry but powerful enough to cause a vehicle to stop.

It absolutely should have been released in lightweight loads, and probably should have been released as a short cased special round in lighter frame if possible. Why set such limitations when a downloaded version would have been the more popular seller? (probably) If anyone wonders if that is true, just think about the number of small frame .38 specials have sold in the past forty years and then think about the number of .357 in all combined frame sizes.

agtman · October 15, 2018, 06:37 PM

Actually, what Taffin said about the 10mm Magnum was:

Quote:

The 10mm Magnum has definite applications as a hunting pistol and a long range silhouette pistol. Shooting informally at long ranges of 100 to 200 meters and using rocks as targets convinced me of this. Anything the .41 Magnum can do, the 10mm Magnum can also do and perhaps do it even a little faster and a little better. That is a tough confession for an old sixgun man to make.

Real Gun · October 15, 2018, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Actually, what Taffin said about the 10mm Magnum was:

But the reference to 10mm was dependent upon the word "Magnum".

agtman · October 15, 2018, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Actually, what Taffin said about the 10mm Magnum was:

Quote:

But the reference to 10mm was dependent upon the word "Magnum."

Huh?

disseminator · October 15, 2018, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Huh?

The statement does not apply to the 10mm Automatic, but only to the 10mm MAGNUM which isn't a commonly available cartridge at this time.

**Mike Irwin** · October 16, 2018, 06:00 AM

I've seen exactly one handgun chambered in 10 Mag., an AMT that went a long way towards disassembling itself with every shot.

As far as I know, no handguns have been chambered for it in a number of years.

agtman · October 16, 2018, 07:48 AM

Quote:

I've seen exactly one handgun chambered in 10 Mag., an AMT that went a long way towards disassembling itself with every shot. As far as I know, no handguns have been chambered for it in a number of years.

Factory guns? No.

Custom conversions of existing revolvers? Yes, quite a number of them actually.

Master wheelgun 'smiths like Hamilton Bowen (probably the best known), Gary Reeder, Clemets Custom, and Mark Hartshone have all done 10mm Magnum 'conversions' to the cylinders of revolvers like the old S&W 610s, the old 10mm S/A Ruger 'Buckeye', not to mention, more recently, Ruger's line of 10mm revolvers, starting with the SHR.

Prior to the 10mm Rugers, the Clemets Custom guy had been converting the cylinders of GP-100 .357 revolvers (fixed or adj sights) to fire 10mm AUTO and .40S&W with moon clips.

Attached pic shows a 6.5" S&W 610 revolver converted to 10mm Magnum, making it a 3-in-1 wheelie ...

**Mike Irwin** · October 16, 2018, 07:57 AM

I'm aware that custom conversions exist and are still being done.

That's not exactly a growth market.

agtman · October 16, 2018, 08:33 AM

Quote:

I'm aware that custom conversions exist and are still being done.
That's not exactly a growth market.

Don't be so impatient

...

The Ruger 10mms have only been on the market for 10-minutes, and Smith's discontinuance of the 610 obviously hasn't increased the pool of 'base' revolvers needed for the conversion.

In fact, the 610s now enjoy a collectors-market status ... I sold my first-run 6.5" 610 several years ago to a local collector for some pretty nice bucks. Had I not done so, it was going to go to Hartshorne for his 10mm Mag conversion, and some other work.

Real Gun · October 16, 2018, 09:14 AM

Quote:

I'm aware that custom conversions exist and are still being done.

That's not exactly a growth market.

While I believe the context was 10mm Magnum, I will share that my Clements Custom .41 Special cost the base gun + $650. It would be the price that dampens the popularity of conversions. It also took a year to get the gun back.

**Mike Irwin** · October 16, 2018, 09:58 AM

IIRC, the 10mm Magnum was introduced... 1991-1992 time frame.

It didn't make a splash, it made a thud.

If the custom conversion market continues its trend in promoting the popularity of the 10 Mag., it should become a regular factory offering about 15 years after everyone switches to phased plasma weapons...

Nanuk · October 16, 2018, 12:05 PM

I had a 41 mag in the 90's. I upgraded to 44 mag and never looked back. The 41 is not that much of an improvement over the 357 magnum.

Nanuk · October 16, 2018, 12:14 PM

Quote:

But the process included time and experience showing that forcing the caliber into a large frame gun was not acceptable. The .41 Special, in S&W terms, would have required an L-frame for a better chance of being what an LEO might actually want to carry.

An L frame weighs the same as an N frame. I carried a 4" or 6" L frame on my hip as a cop for 15 years.

**44 AMP** · October 16, 2018, 12:22 PM

Quote:

came along to late as most LE depts were leaving the revolver and transitioning to autos at the time the .41 came along.

I have seen this a few different times (a couple of different ways) and I have to wonder, where is this coming from, and why does it keep coming up, because it is flat out WRONG!!!!!

The .41Mag came along in 1964, and was around for a couple of decades (20 years+) BEFORE "most LE depts." switched to semi autos.

in the 1960s, 99.9% of the police used revolvers. In the 1970s 98% used revolvers (there was one (1) state police that adopted a semi auto in the 70s. 1 out of 50 is NOT "most)

Police interest in the semi replacing the revolver began in the 80s, and picked up speed in the mid-late 80s, and I wouldn't say "most" police until the mid 90s.

The .41 Magnum came along was examined, tested, and rejected by the police at a time when the police were still virtually "revolver only".

It didn't make the grade as a police round because the police didn't want a N frame magnum revolver firing magnum ammo larger than the .357. Very few police depts. got to test the gun with the "police load" ammo, most only got the magnum ammo, and it was simply not suitable for police use. the few that did get to test the 210gr LSWC load thought it had potential, but didn't want an N frame gun (too big, too heavy).

The .41was NOT "doomed" by the police switch from revolver to semi, it got the thumbs down from police DECADES before that.

Real Gun · October 16, 2018, 01:13 PM

Quote:

An L frame weighs the same as an N frame. I carried a 4" or 6" L frame on my hip as a cop for 15 years.

Holsters for L and N frames are not interchangeable.

ammo.crafter · October 16, 2018, 01:25 PM

March to the beat of a different drummer.

Love my S&W 57 with an Armoloy® TDC (Thin Dense Chromium) finish bought new 30 years ago.

It remains the smoothest and most accurate wheel gun I own.

Since 41 spcl brass is now readily available I've been reloading for them as
well.

agtman · October 16, 2018, 01:28 PM

Quote:

IIRC, the 10mm Magnum was introduced... 1991-1992 time frame.
It didn't make a splash, it made a thud.

No, the one and only pistol chambered for it - IAI's AutoMag IV - was junk, and that's what 'made a thud.'

Don't blame the cartridge because of the gun.

Certain folks tried that with the 10mm AUTO, due to the Bren Ten's quick demise, proclaiming it officially a "dead round." Wonder of wonders, the 10mm is still here and getting stronger.

And those certain unfortunate folks are still trying to wipe the egg off their faces.

Had IMI/Magnum Research chambered the Desert Eagle in 10mm Magnum (they had a .41 Mag DE, remember?), and then made a "switch" upper-barrel assembly for it in 10mm AUTO as a '2-for-1' package, it would've sold very well. Better than the .41 DE.

Factory 10mm Mag ammo:

https://shop.reedsammo.com/10mm-Magnum_c17.htm

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.p...y&path=125_395

TruthTellers · October 17, 2018, 03:35 AM

I'd really like to know if that 135 grain 10mm Mag is specifically built for 1900 fps or if it's just a .40 S&W bullet that's being driven 1000 fps faster than it was designed for.

**Mike Irwin** · October 17, 2018, 06:02 AM

"Don't blame the cartridge because of the gun."

Yep! Because, even though the gun sucked, the cartridge was such an incredible item that NO ONE picked it up after IAI went belly up.

THUD.

Even after Dornhaus & Dixon went belly up and left the 10mm Auto cartridge an orphan there was interest enough in it that Colt, Glock, and other manufacturers picked it up and made it a standard chambering.

How many companies have done that with the 10mm Mag?

<crickets>

I guess gun makers were so stunned by the 10mm Mag's magnificence that then went deer in the headlights and couldn't break free of the reverie...

"Had IMI/Magnum Research chambered the Desert Eagle in 10mm Magnum (they had a .41 Mag DE, remember?), and then made a "switch" upper-barrel assembly for it in 10mm AUTO as a '2-for-1' package, it would've sold very well. Better than the .41 DE."

Really? And had Ronald Reagan been a nuclear powered automaton he could be emperor of the world by now. Imagination is a wonderful thing, in which things that never happened can come true...

Finally, I'm not sure that two relatively low production ammo makers quality as factory.

Winchester, Remington, S&B, Fiocchi, PMC, Aguilla, Federal, Wolf, Tula, Norma, RWS or any of the other MAJOR manufacturers load it?

No?

OK.

Sorry, but we're still at THUD level 5, or damned close to it.

The only saving grace is that Starline manufacturers 10mm Mag brass.

BBarn · October 17, 2018, 09:30 AM

The 41 Mag. is a fine cartridge, but so are the 357 Mag. and 44 Mag. If you want something in the middle, I suppose it fills the niche. It might have caught on more if Dirty Harry hadn't made such a splash with the 44 Mag.

Not sure why the writers in the early 60's thought a 44 Special level load in 40 or 41 caliber was just what was needed at the time. But it's clear that the 41 Mag., as released, was generally more than what was suggested.

Since it never caught on well, it's pretty much been a handloaders cartridge for many years. I've shot a few, and even handloaded it some. But the 44 Mag can be essentially be handload to 41 Mag levels, so there isn't really a desire to have one on my part. The niche just doesn't appeal to me that much.

October 15, 2018, 05:04 PM	#55
joed Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2014 Posts: 442	The .41 Mag was designed for police use from what I remember. It was supposed to have less recoil then the .44 Mag and more power then the .357 Mag. Reality is it is a good cartridge that came along to late as most LE depts were leaving the revolver and transitioning to autos at the time the .41 came along. It's a dying cartridge regardless of what others say. Seems like less manufacturers offer less for it now than they did 10 years ago. __________________ The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.

October 16, 2018, 06:00 AM	#61
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I've seen exactly one handgun chambered in 10 Mag., an AMT that went a long way towards disassembling itself with every shot. As far as I know, no handguns have been chambered for it in a number of years. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 16, 2018, 07:57 AM	#63
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I'm aware that custom conversions exist and are still being done. That's not exactly a growth market. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 16, 2018, 09:58 AM	#66
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	IIRC, the 10mm Magnum was introduced... 1991-1992 time frame. It didn't make a splash, it made a thud. If the custom conversion market continues its trend in promoting the popularity of the 10 Mag., it should become a regular factory offering about 15 years after everyone switches to phased plasma weapons... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 16, 2018, 12:05 PM	#67
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	I had a 41 mag in the 90's. I upgraded to 44 mag and never looked back. The 41 is not that much of an improvement over the 357 magnum. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

October 16, 2018, 01:25 PM	#71
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	41 fever March to the beat of a different drummer. Love my S&W 57 with an Armoloy® TDC (Thin Dense Chromium) finish bought new 30 years ago. It remains the smoothest and most accurate wheel gun I own. Since 41 spcl brass is now readily available I've been reloading for them as well. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

October 17, 2018, 03:35 AM	#73
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,888	I'd really like to know if that 135 grain 10mm Mag is specifically built for 1900 fps or if it's just a .40 S&W bullet that's being driven 1000 fps faster than it was designed for. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

October 17, 2018, 06:02 AM	#74
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Don't blame the cartridge because of the gun." Yep! Because, even though the gun sucked, the cartridge was such an incredible item that NO ONE picked it up after IAI went belly up. THUD. Even after Dornhaus & Dixon went belly up and left the 10mm Auto cartridge an orphan there was interest enough in it that Colt, Glock, and other manufacturers picked it up and made it a standard chambering. How many companies have done that with the 10mm Mag? <crickets> I guess gun makers were so stunned by the 10mm Mag's magnificence that then went deer in the headlights and couldn't break free of the reverie... "Had IMI/Magnum Research chambered the Desert Eagle in 10mm Magnum (they had a .41 Mag DE, remember?), and then made a "switch" upper-barrel assembly for it in 10mm AUTO as a '2-for-1' package, it would've sold very well. Better than the .41 DE." Really? And had Ronald Reagan been a nuclear powered automaton he could be emperor of the world by now. Imagination is a wonderful thing, in which things that never happened can come true... Finally, I'm not sure that two relatively low production ammo makers quality as factory. Winchester, Remington, S&B, Fiocchi, PMC, Aguilla, Federal, Wolf, Tula, Norma, RWS or any of the other MAJOR manufacturers load it? No? OK. Sorry, but we're still at THUD level 5, or damned close to it. The only saving grace is that Starline manufacturers 10mm Mag brass. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 17, 2018, 09:30 AM	#75
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	The 41 Mag. is a fine cartridge, but so are the 357 Mag. and 44 Mag. If you want something in the middle, I suppose it fills the niche. It might have caught on more if Dirty Harry hadn't made such a splash with the 44 Mag. Not sure why the writers in the early 60's thought a 44 Special level load in 40 or 41 caliber was just what was needed at the time. But it's clear that the 41 Mag., as released, was generally more than what was suggested. Since it never caught on well, it's pretty much been a handloaders cartridge for many years. I've shot a few, and even handloaded it some. But the 44 Mag can be essentially be handload to 41 Mag levels, so there isn't really a desire to have one on my part. The niche just doesn't appeal to me that much.