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Old November 14, 2015, 05:28 PM   #1
Slimjim9
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Should I be able to do this with a stock G19?

https://youtu.be/-9AT0lWI-pg

This guy's gun barely moves. My G19 moves a heck of a lot more than that. Is it technique? The gun? Ammo?
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Old November 14, 2015, 05:33 PM   #2
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It's hard to know what kind of ammo he's shooting or what modifications have been done to the gun and either of those things could make it easier to keep the muzzle down.

But that said, there's a reason he's being paid to shoot professionally and you aren't. Don't feel too bad, I'm in the same boat.
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Old November 14, 2015, 05:55 PM   #3
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It's mostly due to all that ballast around his waist.
Or his grip and stance, more than the ammo.
But it wouldn't look the same if he was shooting a 500, though.
Mostly it's the shooter.
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Old November 14, 2015, 06:04 PM   #4
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By the way, this is the guy shooting in the video.

http://bjnorris.com/
  • Steel Challenge World Champion, 2011
  • Steel Challenge SteelMaster Division World Champion 2012, 2011, 2009, 2008
  • Steel Challenge Rimfire Optics Division, World Champion 2011, 2009, 2007
  • Steel Challenge Iron Sight Pistol Division World Champion, 2012
  • Steel Challenge Production Division World Champion, 2010
  • Steel Challenge Junior World Champion, 2006
  • Ruger Rimfire Series Overall World Champion, 2011
  • FNH-USA3 Gun Championship, Tactical-Limited Division Champion
  • USPSA Junior National Champion, Open Division, 2007, 2006, 2005
  • USPSA Junior National Champion, Production Division, 2003
  • Steel Challenge SteelMaster Division National Champion 2012, 2011, 2009
  • Steel Challenge Iron Sight Pistol Division National Champion, 2012, 2009
  • Steel Challenge Rimfire Optics Division National Champion, 2008, 2011

He's been shooting competitively for the last 15 years. Did I mention he's now 26?
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Old November 14, 2015, 06:26 PM   #5
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The "grip and stance" comment is what I'm talking about. I'm sure he has a competition trigger so there's no way I can pull my stock one that fast. But even if I could, the shots would be all over the place. By the time my finger is ready to press for the second shot, my sight is nowhere close to where it was before the first shot so I have to reacquire the sights each time. That can't be the way to proficiency. (I know, I know, get some real training, not just trigger time. )

Edit: by the way, I'm not after competition level accuracy, just "combat accuracy" but if you see my post in the "5x5" thread, I've got a long way to go on that.
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Old November 14, 2015, 07:13 PM   #6
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All those guys will tell you their grip isn't mean't to prevent muzzle rise, but rather meant to be neutral, meaning the front sight returns to the same place every time.

Muzzle rise isn't what slows you down - having to look for and re-aquire a light picture (because your grip isn't neutral) is what really slows one down. Those guys are rippin' fast for a number of reasons, but one of them is that they have a well-honed neutral grip, and great index, and they let their subconscious confirm the sight's right (and it will be if the grip's neutral) before the shot subconsciously breaks. It takes practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slimjim9
I'm sure he has a competition trigger
Believe me, it ain't the bow, it's the indian. You'd barely tell the difference if he also video'd himself with a bone-stock G19.
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Old November 14, 2015, 07:28 PM   #7
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All those guys will tell you their grip isn't mean't to prevent muzzle rise, but rather meant to be neutral, meaning the front sight returns to the same place every time.
Having the sight come down on target is very important, but although you're right about what they will say when asked, controlling muzzle rise and getting the muzzle back down fast is also important. The guys who can shoot as fast as B. J. do a much better job of that than the average shooter.
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Old November 14, 2015, 09:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBorland
Believe me, it ain't the bow, it's the indian. You'd barely tell the difference if he also video'd himself with a bone-stock G19.
And that's actually encouraging.
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Old November 14, 2015, 10:47 PM   #9
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Some things to work on.

1. Make sure you're getting a good grip on the pistol. You should be easily able to run through an entire magazine without having to readjust your grip. Even when it's sweltering at the range and your hands get sweaty.

If you are using a proper grip and you still can't get the traction you need to keep the gun from shifting during a shot string, then it may be time to look into ways to modify the pistol. Stippling, stick-on grip panels, grip tape, decal grips, different grips, etc.

2. Make sure you're not blinking during your shot strings. If you don't ever see muzzle flash then you're blinking with the shot even if you don't realize it. This is the visual equivalent of readjusting your grip after every shot. Every time the gun goes off, you have to open your eyes, reacquire the sights and target and get everything back in focus.

3. Practice your trigger control. It doesn't matter if you are one with the pistol, you can maintain perfect focus on the front sight, and blink less often than a snake, if you yank the trigger you're not going to make the hits. Dryfire is the best way to acquire good trigger control skills. Don't pick the gun with the best trigger; for this you want to practice with the gun that has the worst trigger in your safe.

4. When you're at the range, practice, shoot for score and keep records. Sure, range trips should be fun, but if you're trying to build skills, you're going to need to work at it--and you need to be able to tell if you're improving. So have some fun, but don't forget to do some drills and practice.

5. Have realistic expectations. If you want to be able to consistently shoot multiple aimed shots per second, you're going to have to expend a decent amount of range time, ammo, and dryfire practice hours.

6. Don't try for speed--especially not at first. When you get everything working right, the speed will come.
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Old November 15, 2015, 01:01 AM   #10
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The amount a gun recoils depends on the mass resisting that recoil. Remember that "mass" means not only the weight of the gun itself and the ammunition, but the weight of the shooter's hand(s) and arm(s). And the shooter can consciously resist recoil if he is trained to do so.

A little tale: When the Army first adopted the M14, there were comments that it was uncontrollable in full auto fire. It was, but the Army chose to "prove" otherwise by putting on a demonstration at Aberdeen in which two old master sergeants, each weighing about the same as an M1 Abrams, with arms the size of barrels (beer, not rifle), fired M14's on auto. Those guns never moved. Can I keep an M14 down? Nope, and no one else of normal build ever could either.

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Old November 15, 2015, 02:00 AM   #11
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I'm not a small guy, and have not had any trouble keeping my L1A1 under control and a rather smallish skinny friend of mine didn't either. I think a lot of it's in your mind set and how much effort you put into controlling it.

Granted, it's a different concept than an M14, but it's the same cartridge.
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Old November 15, 2015, 03:40 AM   #12
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The amount of muzzle rise you get changes a lot depending on your grip and stance. When I switched to a thumbs-forward grip and started using an iscosoles stance as my primary stance, I noticed that my handgun's muzzle flip dropped by almost half.

But don't forget that the frame rate on a YouTube video often isn't fast enough to pick up on the full muzzle rise of a pistol. I'll bet his Wilson 92G isn't moving as much as most people's pistols do, but I'll also bet we're not seeing the full muzzle rise in every shot due to the frame rate limitations of the video.
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Old November 15, 2015, 10:14 PM   #13
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No way you can do that with stock g19. There's reason that guy is shooting custom gun. Why waste money when you can do same thing with Tupperware and Walmart ammo , right?

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Old November 15, 2015, 10:29 PM   #14
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I know a USPSA Production division master shooter that has a pretty much stock G34. Other than maybe a lighter spring, it is all stock. WELL worn to be considerably more smooth than an out of the box trigger, but stock none-the-less.

Ammo certainly makes a difference when you are loading custom rounds. Though proper grip probably ranks higher in importance.

Regarding your trigger and how fast you can pull it to get his kind of accuracy, this is largely a function of getting to know your trigger. Top shooters do a LOT of dry fire. They intimately know their trigger's uptake, break, over-travel, and reset.

Verify your pistol is empty, point it in a safe direction, and see if you can pull the trigger to the point just before it will break/fire. If it didn't break, then pull just a little more to see if you are right to it's limit.

After the trigger breaks, keep it depressed (but no further than it was when it broke) and rack the slide. Then start letting the trigger out until it resets.

After doing that multiple (and I mean a LOT) of times, can you predict where it will break and reset?

That is learning your trigger.

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Old November 16, 2015, 12:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerko
No way you can do that with stock g19. There's reason that guy is shooting custom gun.....
Nope, it's a matter of skill not the gun.

Folks often fall into the trap of believing that having the right hardware can make up for training and practice. But at the end of the day, there's no good substitute for good training and good practice.

Software transcends hardware.
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Old November 16, 2015, 05:16 AM   #16
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Then start letting the trigger out until it resets.
Top Masters and GrandMasters don't use the reset - letting the trigger out to just catch the reset is too slow. Instead, they're generally "trigger slappers", meaning they get off the trigger to allow the trigger to fully come forward before pulling it (with good control) again.
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Old November 16, 2015, 06:18 AM   #17
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It's primarily the grip. It starts with ALWAYS getting your grip as high as possible on the backstrap. The gun will always take the path of least resistance and if your grip is low it will always push up to the left or right.
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Old November 16, 2015, 08:41 AM   #18
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Should I be able to do this with a stock G19?

If you shoot 25,000 to 30,000 rounds a year in practice, I say yes you should. If you shoot a 100 rounds every 2 weeks I would say no.

As I posted on the related 5 x 5 thread, I shot it in a total of 17.49. This was with a bone stock G19 drawn out of a Don Hume 721ot holster from underneath a cover garment. I didn't game it. I showed up to the range, set up the target and shot it. These were my first 25 shots of the day.

I'm not even a serious competitor. I shoot some local matches within 80 miles of my home town, but that is about it. I'm 54, have failing eyesight and can't even see my sights anymore. I have been shooting since I was seven and do shoot about 30,000 rounds a year.

So work on your grip, stance, and trigger control, and practice a LOT, and yes you should be able too.
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Old November 16, 2015, 09:15 AM   #19
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The pile of brass on the floor should tell you why he can do this.

Had an All Guard Pistol shooter comment on my scores (I never was so hot shooting bulleye).

He said: "The difference between his shooting and mine is the amount of time he spent standing knee deep in brass."
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Old November 16, 2015, 09:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerko
No way you can do that with stock g19. There's reason that guy is shooting custom gun.....
Nope, it's a matter of skill not the gun.

Folks often fall into the trap of believing that having the right hardware can make up for training and practice. But at the end of the day, there's no good substitute for good training and good practice.

Software transcends hardware.
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I agree 100%. "Any gun will do if you will do!"

I competed nearly 20 years in IPSC and IDPA (still shooting two matches each month); I have known many, many masters and grandmasters. You can give them any firearm; they will perform at very high levels.

I consider myself just a avoid shooter, nothing special and I can shoot a master score in high teens with a STOCK G17 (5.5-lb trigger), so I know these real good shooters can do in low teens EASILY.
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Old November 16, 2015, 09:41 AM   #21
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There's no question lots of quality trigger time at the range is important, but it's only part of the equation.

Really good competitive shooters also spend lots of time practicing via dry fire drills. In this context, "dry fire" isn't solely about trigger control - it's also about getting your grip and index consistent, and getting your gun handling skills (e.g., drawing, transitioning, reloading, etc) and movement as fast, efficient and automatic as possible.

The 3rd part of the equation is a strong mental game: Really good competitive shooters maintain a positive & winning attitude. They don't let counterproductive mental chatter undermine their progress, and they don't get distracted at practice and matches. When they see someone better, they're inspired to work harder, rather than throw up their hands and come up with excuses. "Their gun's better", "their ammo is wimpy", "they're a pro and given everything they need", "they have so much more talent than me" are all common narratives that separate the wannabees from the shooters.

Bottom line: Most people have enough talent to be really excellent shooters, but it takes desire, lots of practice on and off the range, and a good attitude.
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Old November 16, 2015, 11:48 AM   #22
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MrBorland

Just as a reference point MrBorland...

When you are in competition mode how much practice time and how many rounds per month will you go through?
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Old November 16, 2015, 01:16 PM   #23
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jglsprings - When I'm in competition/practice mode, I'll live fire twice a week - one practice session, and one match. If no match, I'll practice twice. I'll generally shoot 10 - 15k rounds per year.

When in competition mode, I also try to run specific dry fire drills several times per week, about 30 minutes each.

Compared to the Big Dogs, this ain't much - probably half what they do - but I enjoy numerous forms of shooting, and haven't (yet) focused on any of them enough to reach top GM level.
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Old November 16, 2015, 01:19 PM   #24
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i'll have to try that next time i'm at the range. i'm a SS in IDPA presently.
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Old November 16, 2015, 02:24 PM   #25
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The spare tire must the key - he doesn't look like he has the forearms or any other muscles to keep the muzzle down like that.

Yesterday, I was shooting a G19 and trying to get a shot off every 2 seconds or so, and I remember being irritated at not being able to keep my fore finger tight around the front of trigger guard a lot of the time, much less keeping the muzzle on target.
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