Movie guns - Page 2

Driftwood Johnson · June 1, 2016, 07:48 PM

Howdy Again

You have to realize that a great many of the firearms used in movies in the old days were rented. Stembridge was probably the major supplier of firearms to the moves for many years. Starting around 1913 James Stembridge landed a job working for Cecil B. DeMille helping train actors to look and behave like soldiers. Stembridge realized there would be a need for firearms in the movies and began buying up old guns. Thousands of them. Most of what he bought were old and obsolete and not much value was placed on them at the time.

The old oatburners and war movies were made fast and dirty on tight budgets. Time was money. The reason we saw so many Winchester Model 1892 rifles and Colt Single Action Army revolvers in the old Westerns is because Stembridge had so many of them. If an Army needed to be equipped with dozens of rifles, Stembridge supplied what they had in abundance, even if it was not historically correct for the era the movie portrayed. Nobody cared very much at the time about being historically accurate, so that's why a '92 with its fore stock removed could pass for a Henry rifle. I have seen several of them, in the Scalphunters, and Winchester '73. For pirate movies, Trap Door rifles would be cut down and made to look like flint lock pistols. Why? Because no director would stand around waiting while muzzle loading firearms were loaded. It was so much easier and quicker to slip a blank cartridge into a chamber.

But that was a real antique Henry in the hands of Aline McMahon in Man from Laramie. 1955 was much too early for it to have been an Italian replica. And I'm pretty sure Jeff Corey was holding a real Henry in True Grit in 1969.

Times changed. By the 1980s Stembridge had about 10,000 guns in their armory. But control of the company had passed out of the hands of the Stembridge family, and around 2000 the owners sold off most of the collection, cashing in one time on how much the collection had increased in value.

No longer could a director call up Stembridge and order up a movie full of old guns. You will also notice that since that time not many movies are made any more with dozens of guns in them. Most firearms in movies today, particularly in Westerns, are Italian replicas. Uberti started producing replicas of Civil War revolvers in the late 1950s, as the centennial of the Civil War approached. As the variety of what Uberti produced increased so did the variety of what started appearing in movies increased.

Then there were the unusual movies made with an eye to history. The 1876 Winchester that Tom Selleck used in Crossfire Trail was cobbled together from two originals. The Sharps rifle Selleck used in Quigley Down Under was a Shiloh, and there was a second rifle with an aluminum barrel for the scenes where it was thrown to the ground.

But there were no phony guns in the old oatburners. I still cringe when somebody kicks a 1st Gen Colt across the floor or drops one to the ground in an old movie. But heck, they were not worth much then.

Interesting note: when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941, the commander of Fort Macarthur in Los Angeles felt he might not have enough weapons at the base. He called up Stembridge, and they sent over several hundred rifles and more than 50 Tommy guns.

So next time you are complaining about the guns you see in the movies, think a little bit about the history of movie making, and just where all those guns came from in the first place.

James K · June 1, 2016, 09:27 PM

Stembridge wasn't the only source; the studios also rented guns from importers/dealers in the LA area. That is how some of Custer's troopers got Mexican Mausers - Golden State had tons of them at the time. Of course, if they really had had those Mausers...

Jim

salvadore · June 3, 2016, 11:20 AM

Drifty, you are a history whiz, or is that an history whiz, whatever, I love your posts.

Slopemeno · June 3, 2016, 12:34 PM

Our shop did two identical Remington 700 PSS for "Sniper" with Tom Berringer via a gun rental company called "Weapons and Effects". It was interesting, and we did a bunch of other guns that never made it into the movie.

T. O'Heir · June 3, 2016, 12:53 PM

Wild Bunch wasn't any better.
The best movie ever made was 'Zulu' in 1964.

James K · June 3, 2016, 02:01 PM

Some of the TV "history" shows are no better. I always think of some producer yelling, "Get me some pictures of guys with guns, I don't care where from."

Did you know that in WWI, the British attacked the French? And the Russians attacked the British? And French fighter planes had black crosses on them?

Isn't historical accuracy great?

Jim

SIGSHR · June 3, 2016, 02:43 PM

Years ago a fellow GI told me movie guns were sleeved to prevent live ammunition being fired in them. Any truth to that ?
The Clarke House at Princeton Battlefield here in Central NJ has a Nock Volley gun on display.

deerslayer303 · June 3, 2016, 08:41 PM

If that was the case Brandon Lee would not have died. A dummy round (no powder only a primer) was fired in a scene. The primer had enough force to get the bullet into the barrel. In the Scene he died in when that same gun was fired at him the blank load drove the bullet killing Lee (according to Wiki). Or maybe the sleeves you are referring to could have been a direct result of Lee's death.

BlackPowderBen · June 3, 2016, 10:22 PM

Here's a stretch,
It's supposed to be a 1860's gatling gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPVyvwwVns

Hawg · June 4, 2016, 01:27 AM

Quote:

It's supposed to be a 1860's gatling gun.

Actually it was supposed to be a French Mitrailleuse machine gun.

**4V50 Gary** · June 4, 2016, 06:22 AM

There's an Enfield bolt action in a scene in Zulu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBNUUj1-fY

foolzrushn · June 4, 2016, 09:24 AM

I have not seen anyone make reference to the Internet Movie Firearms Data Base (IMFDB). It seems to be like Wiki, in that people can make a page on movie guns.

I was looking at Dances With Wolves and some of the pistols that are proclaimed .36 cal seem larger to me, looking at the muzzle. So I'm sure that there are errors, but it may interest you anyway, if only to disagree with what is written.

It seems that errors could be corrected like Wiki, if someone had the notion. Look up your favorite movie, or make a page for one.

http://www.imfdb.org

BlackPowderBen · June 4, 2016, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Actually it was supposed to be a French Mitrailleuse machine gun

My bad, you're right Hawg. ramon wasn't working the crank at the breech end of the gun though

Hawg · June 4, 2016, 11:57 AM

Quote:

I was looking at Dances With Wolves and some of the pistols that are proclaimed .36 cal seem larger to me, looking at the muzzle.

One looks like it has a rebated cylinder so you're probably right.

Quote:

ramon wasn't working the crank at the breech end of the gun though

Probably a Maxim made to look like one.

lechiffre · June 6, 2016, 08:07 PM

Quote:

If you're looking for accuracies with western movie guns, watch the dollars trilogy The man with no names 1873 single action armies that he used in the early 1860s, in the good the bad and the ugly they started using cartridge converted '51s and '58s. Not a big deal to me,I just enjoy the film.

"The Good,The Bad,and The Ugly" is a prequel to the other two.

**4V50 Gary** · June 7, 2016, 08:12 PM

Used to be a website, The Muzzle Loading Hide, and the rifle for Disney's Daniel Boone (protrayed by Fess Parker) was discussed. There were two and one was a trapdoor modified to appear like a flintlock.

Ozzieman · July 7, 2016, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Did you know that in WWI, the British attacked the French? And the Russians attacked the British? And French fighter planes had black crosses on them?

And how many times have you seen SBD’s used to show Japanese dive bombers attacking Pearl Harbor in old movies. The one airplane that's more responsible for winning the Pacific war than any other plane.

ThomasT · July 7, 2016, 02:58 PM

I watched a movie yesterday on Netflix called "The Keeping Room' and the woman main character was armed with a Traditions Deerhunter rifle. The one with no barrel rib and a 24" barrel. I really liked the gun. think they used to sell at Walmart for less than a hundred bucks. I liked the movie. It also had Hailee Stienfeld, the girl in the remake of True Grit.

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/p...r-muzzleloader

OutlawJoseyWales · July 7, 2016, 08:54 PM

Ozzieman,
there is one particular clip that someone put together LONG ago I guess, that had a Douglas Dauntless diving and then it jumps to Pearl Harbor ship exploding. Typical media, messes everything up.

I've seen it many many times and hated it even when I was a kid. As kids we knew our WWII aircraft and had models of everyone of them.

I don't know how this film clip got going. Some smart person needs to find out how this came about.

Ozzieman · July 7, 2016, 09:37 PM

Douglas Dauntless
That's the SBD. The same piece of film has been used in many movies.

SIGSHR · July 8, 2016, 02:10 PM

I am still looking for one of the left handed M1893 Mausers the Spanish troops use in Rough Riders.

gyvel · July 8, 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

There's an Enfield bolt action in a scene in Zulu.

Sho' nuff. One whole line of troops had long Lee-Enfields. Not mention all the revolvers I saw were Mk VI Webley & Scotts.

gyvel · July 8, 2016, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Wild Bunch wasn't any better.

Wild Bunch wasn't that bad. The SAA Colts were good, the 1911s were good, the Luger was good and the Browning water cooled was off only by a year or so. The only real boners were the U.S. Infantry troops armed with 03-A3s and Zamora's troops armed with 1936 Mexican Mausers.

JT-AR-MG42 · July 9, 2016, 05:24 AM

Quote:

uigley Down Under however was really correct! Great to watch reality in action.

The guns looked really nice and period correct, but NOT SO for Selleck's gun handling.
Even though the Shiloh had the new design two piece firing pin set-up,
I remember cringing every time I saw him work the block without ever bringing the rifle to half cock first.

Dragging the firing pin (held in place by the hammer and it's spring) across the primer of a live round is not really the smart or correct way to do things.

In addition, opening the breech with the hammer down on an empty chamber drags the tip of the firing pin
(which is at a downward angle in the original design)
into and across the rear portion of the chamber and it's rim recess.

Had to vent on that.

I've mentioned this before, but in 'Gunfight at the O.K. Corral', (1957 IIRC) watch for the scene with Burt Lancaster in the jail house.

He is seated and playing with the ladder rear sight on a long barrel Colt SAA.
That gun was the original.

JT

ThomasT · July 10, 2016, 12:16 PM

JT I read an article after Quigley came out and Mike Venturino stated that he taught Tom Sellek how to handle and shoot that gun. You would have thought he knew better.

June 3, 2016, 12:53 PM	#30
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Wild Bunch wasn't any better. The best movie ever made was 'Zulu' in 1964. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 3, 2016, 08:41 PM	#33
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,652	If that was the case Brandon Lee would not have died. A dummy round (no powder only a primer) was fired in a scene. The primer had enough force to get the bullet into the barrel. In the Scene he died in when that same gun was fired at him the blank load drove the bullet killing Lee (according to Wiki). Or maybe the sleeves you are referring to could have been a direct result of Lee's death. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

June 3, 2016, 10:22 PM	#34
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Here's a stretch, It's supposed to be a 1860's gatling gun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsPVyvwwVns __________________ "If you have to shoot, shoot! Dont talk"

June 4, 2016, 06:22 AM	#36
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	There's an Enfield bolt action in a scene in Zulu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBNUUj1-fY __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

June 4, 2016, 09:24 AM	#37
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	IMFDB I have not seen anyone make reference to the Internet Movie Firearms Data Base (IMFDB). It seems to be like Wiki, in that people can make a page on movie guns. I was looking at Dances With Wolves and some of the pistols that are proclaimed .36 cal seem larger to me, looking at the muzzle. So I'm sure that there are errors, but it may interest you anyway, if only to disagree with what is written. It seems that errors could be corrected like Wiki, if someone had the notion. Look up your favorite movie, or make a page for one. http://www.imfdb.org __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

June 1, 2016, 07:48 PM	#26
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy Again You have to realize that a great many of the firearms used in movies in the old days were rented. Stembridge was probably the major supplier of firearms to the moves for many years. Starting around 1913 James Stembridge landed a job working for Cecil B. DeMille helping train actors to look and behave like soldiers. Stembridge realized there would be a need for firearms in the movies and began buying up old guns. Thousands of them. Most of what he bought were old and obsolete and not much value was placed on them at the time. The old oatburners and war movies were made fast and dirty on tight budgets. Time was money. The reason we saw so many Winchester Model 1892 rifles and Colt Single Action Army revolvers in the old Westerns is because Stembridge had so many of them. If an Army needed to be equipped with dozens of rifles, Stembridge supplied what they had in abundance, even if it was not historically correct for the era the movie portrayed. Nobody cared very much at the time about being historically accurate, so that's why a '92 with its fore stock removed could pass for a Henry rifle. I have seen several of them, in the Scalphunters, and Winchester '73. For pirate movies, Trap Door rifles would be cut down and made to look like flint lock pistols. Why? Because no director would stand around waiting while muzzle loading firearms were loaded. It was so much easier and quicker to slip a blank cartridge into a chamber. But that was a real antique Henry in the hands of Aline McMahon in Man from Laramie. 1955 was much too early for it to have been an Italian replica. And I'm pretty sure Jeff Corey was holding a real Henry in True Grit in 1969. Times changed. By the 1980s Stembridge had about 10,000 guns in their armory. But control of the company had passed out of the hands of the Stembridge family, and around 2000 the owners sold off most of the collection, cashing in one time on how much the collection had increased in value. No longer could a director call up Stembridge and order up a movie full of old guns. You will also notice that since that time not many movies are made any more with dozens of guns in them. Most firearms in movies today, particularly in Westerns, are Italian replicas. Uberti started producing replicas of Civil War revolvers in the late 1950s, as the centennial of the Civil War approached. As the variety of what Uberti produced increased so did the variety of what started appearing in movies increased. Then there were the unusual movies made with an eye to history. The 1876 Winchester that Tom Selleck used in Crossfire Trail was cobbled together from two originals. The Sharps rifle Selleck used in Quigley Down Under was a Shiloh, and there was a second rifle with an aluminum barrel for the scenes where it was thrown to the ground. But there were no phony guns in the old oatburners. I still cringe when somebody kicks a 1st Gen Colt across the floor or drops one to the ground in an old movie. But heck, they were not worth much then. Interesting note: when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941, the commander of Fort Macarthur in Los Angeles felt he might not have enough weapons at the base. He called up Stembridge, and they sent over several hundred rifles and more than 50 Tommy guns. So next time you are complaining about the guns you see in the movies, think a little bit about the history of movie making, and just where all those guns came from in the first place.

June 1, 2016, 09:27 PM	#27
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Stembridge wasn't the only source; the studios also rented guns from importers/dealers in the LA area. That is how some of Custer's troopers got Mexican Mausers - Golden State had tons of them at the time. Of course, if they really had had those Mausers... Jim

June 3, 2016, 11:20 AM	#28
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Drifty, you are a history whiz, or is that an history whiz, whatever, I love your posts.

June 3, 2016, 12:34 PM	#29
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	Our shop did two identical Remington 700 PSS for "Sniper" with Tom Berringer via a gun rental company called "Weapons and Effects". It was interesting, and we did a bunch of other guns that never made it into the movie.

June 3, 2016, 02:01 PM	#31
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Some of the TV "history" shows are no better. I always think of some producer yelling, "Get me some pictures of guys with guns, I don't care where from." Did you know that in WWI, the British attacked the French? And the Russians attacked the British? And French fighter planes had black crosses on them? Isn't historical accuracy great? Jim

June 3, 2016, 02:43 PM	#32
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Years ago a fellow GI told me movie guns were sleeved to prevent live ammunition being fired in them. Any truth to that ? The Clarke House at Princeton Battlefield here in Central NJ has a Nock Volley gun on display.

June 7, 2016, 08:12 PM	#41
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	Used to be a website, The Muzzle Loading Hide, and the rifle for Disney's Daniel Boone (protrayed by Fess Parker) was discussed. There were two and one was a trapdoor modified to appear like a flintlock. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

July 7, 2016, 02:58 PM	#43
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I watched a movie yesterday on Netflix called "The Keeping Room' and the woman main character was armed with a Traditions Deerhunter rifle. The one with no barrel rib and a 24" barrel. I really liked the gun. think they used to sell at Walmart for less than a hundred bucks. I liked the movie. It also had Hailee Stienfeld, the girl in the remake of True Grit. https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/p...r-muzzleloader

July 7, 2016, 08:54 PM	#44
OutlawJoseyWales Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 237	Ozzieman, there is one particular clip that someone put together LONG ago I guess, that had a Douglas Dauntless diving and then it jumps to Pearl Harbor ship exploding. Typical media, messes everything up. I've seen it many many times and hated it even when I was a kid. As kids we knew our WWII aircraft and had models of everyone of them. I don't know how this film clip got going. Some smart person needs to find out how this came about.

July 7, 2016, 09:37 PM	#45
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Douglas Dauntless That's the SBD. The same piece of film has been used in many movies. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.

July 8, 2016, 02:10 PM	#46
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I am still looking for one of the left handed M1893 Mausers the Spanish troops use in Rough Riders.

July 10, 2016, 12:16 PM	#50
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	JT I read an article after Quigley came out and Mike Venturino stated that he taught Tom Sellek how to handle and shoot that gun. You would have thought he knew better.