Safety & muzzleloaders - are we buying bombs?

[marcseatac]

I have used up to 150 grains with the Speers semiwadcutter. It is Speer 44 CAL 240 GR .430 SWC #4660. You will find these in the handloaders section at the sporting goods store. Also Hornady and TC sabots can be found anywhere that has BP supplies, I happen to like the MMP sabots the best. I buy the MMP sabots sized .430 50 cal from cabelas. The bullet goes in a sabot! They make great practice loads. I have found they shoot very tight groups with 80 grains of T7. Same as my favorite Buffalo bullet. The Buffalo bullet however will retain it's accuracy with hotter loads than the Speer does.

Another one worth mentioning from Cabelas is the Precision Rifles Dead Center Lead Bullet, w/plastic tip in orange sabot. that one is 240 Dead Center .40/.50 caliber good long range choice.

The Speer for $10.00 a hundred is hard to beat.

[Whisk]

The speer is a conical non-patched bullet?

How much Triple 7 is recommended?

80 grs?

[P-990]

Whisk,

It's actually a pistol bullet meant to be loaded into .44-caliber cartridges (.44 Magnum, .44 Special). He's talking about buying the bullets and sabots seperate and making a saboted combination out of them.

marcseatac,

I can beat $10/100. How about $27 for 500, OTD? Bulk 240gr lead SWC, Northeast Precision, sized .430".

How do you like the MMPs versus the Hornady and TC sabots? I've tried the TCs with OK results in .50/.44 and have a package of Hornadys to try. I thought about buying some MMPs and some .452" bullets for my TC.

[marcseatac]

P-990,

That is a good deal on SWC. The MMP sabots kind of remind me of the ones that are used in the Buffalo Bullets. They have a consistant feel in loading. I haven't had any problem having to pound them down. They are similar to the Hornadys. The MMPs seem to work better with the wadcutters and the Hornady TC type I like with jacketed bullets. There isn't really a huge difference. The difference may be more specific to what barrel you are using. That's good to know about the bulk price I need to look around. I wouldn't mind having a big store of sabots and bullets!

[deltal767]

after reading the forum i think i blew it i just bought the CVA kodiac pro magnum from cabellas now you guys got me worried about this thing blowing up in my face i called cabellas they said return the gun no problem so i think im going with the Thompson/Center Omega .50-Caliber i should have read this before i bought this firearm so any suggestions please feel free to post your thoughts
thank you
gary

[mykeal]

Go back and read the dates on these posts. CVA is still in business, they have not been sued by dozens of widows demanding compensation for wrongful deaths. Wakeman has pretty much been discredited although he continues his crusade without the support of the vast majority of muzzleloader shooters. I suggest you also use the power of the internet to find documentation of any incidents - if there were any, they'd be out there.

[deltal767]

thanks i have been doing more research and really cant find anything lately on the internet accept for the same source you just said i"m new to black powder rifles (i've shot black powder wheel guns in 44 cal) i read good reports and some negative and the dates got me to think even more that why would they sell a firearm that would explode in your face thanks again gary

[FrontierGander]

Info on CVA's new Bergara Barrels from a real Pro

Last night curiosity got the best of me and I uncovered the Rockwell hardness tester to check out the hardness of the Bergara Encore barrels.

"Cheap, Soft Spanish guns" has traditionally sometimes been true, unfortunately, which I can personally vouche for in regard to some I have had such as a Llama 1911 type .45 ACP that had the slide showing signs of stretching after very little use. Likewise, my .45 Firestar shows signs of stretching with only a few Federal +Ps run through it.

Likewise, Taurus handguns from Brazil once had a reputation for being cheaply made, but today it is another story entirely with Taurus putting out superb guns that rival the very best. Frankly, I have picked up several Taurus wheel guns that left me lusting for one myself!

Over the past year and a half doing machine work on Bergara barrels, I have rechambered, cut and crowned, relined, had numerous barrels cut rifle rebored to larger calibers, drilled and tapped, and cut my TBOSS into them.

Their steel machines VERY nicely. Harking back to the days when I did a lot of cut rifling reboring, off the cuff in terms of machineability, I would put the Bergara Encore barrel steel somewhere between early Winchester stainless steel and Ruger's blued, chrome-moly, steel for machining easily and very cleanly.

Cut rifle reboring will tell you more about the machining qualities of barrel steel probably better than any other test. The Bergara barrels I have had rebored recently have cut rifled beautifully!

Internal finishes and the costs to produce those finishes are in part a function of how readily the steel machines and is reflected in the finishes of both the bores and the chambers of the Bergara barrels and their excellent price points.

The point of this Newsletter is this. Has anything by way of barrel hardness (ie, tensile strength) been sacrificed to get these nice finishes at the price we pay for the product?

Drum rollllllll:

Blued steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardness tested at Rc 25.
Stainless steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardenss tested Rc 17.
(Their Encore muzzle loader barrels are made from the same steel as their rifle barrels.)

How does this compare with other high power rifle barrels?

Quick summary of checks I have made over the years:

Older vintages of military Mauser barrels and early 1903 Springfield .30/06 manganese steel barrels around Rc 10.

Later Springfield .30/06 barrels made from what P.O. Ackley said was "WD4140," WD meaning "War Department", was around Rc17, the average hardness of "normalized," ie, air cooled 4140 steel.

The majority of commercial barrels from Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc. tested around Rc 24-26, while at the time I tested them, the Savage 110 barrels were right up there at around Rc 30-32.

Shilen barrels at the time were Rc 19 while Douglas was around Rc 25.

Current Shilen barrels run around Rc 29-30.

Most 416 stainless rifle barrels are around Rc 20, +/-.

As you can see, barrel steel hardnesses range all over the planet, over the entire hardness range from dead soft annealed up through about Rc 32, the upper end of the hardness range that still readily permits the types of machining operations involved in making barrels.

Bottom line:
The Bergara Encore barrels made in Bergara, Spain are right where they need to be for hardness, which determines in large part the tensile strength of the steel.

"Soft Spanish guns" does not apply here!

Another plus for Bergara barrels!

Mike Bellm
_________________


cva's barrels in the past did not have a problem blowing up, they had a problem with breech plugs blowing OUT Thats on the 1995-1996 models only.

Ask randy about the savage muzzleloaders that first came out with bad breech plugs and were blowing apart. Toby Bridges would know.

[deltal767]

heres what CVA sent me its long but good info

Gary,



Thanks for taking the time to write. The Kodiak Pro rifles have a Bergara Barrel that is manufactured in our factory in Bergara Spain (see www.bergarabarrels.com ). Bergara Barrels is one of the fastest growing, and certainly one of the most technically advanced barrel making facilitiies in the world.



I am sure you are reading the “opinions” of Randy Wakeman. Randy is certainly a talented and persuasive writer. But unfortunately he is a little misguided. His online articles are packed with untruths, half-truths and misleading statements designed to turn shooters away from CVA products. I think if you go back and read these articles again with an open mind you will see that this guy is on some sort of vendetta and has really gone off the deep end in his hatred of our company. Why??? I don’t know, I wish I did. O’Neil Williams, the host of the popular hunting and fishing show Outside with O’Neil Williams, recently forwarded a similar email to our company CEO. Attached is the response. I have sent it to you because this letter explains things pretty well. Please take the time to read it. If, after reading this letter, you still have doubts, please send me your telephone number and I will be happy give you a call. In the mean time I suggest that you do as all of the editors of the major gun magazines are doing….ignore him.



Many regards,





Mark Hendricks

VP of Technical Development

Blackpowder Products, Inc

770-449-4687, ext 115

heres the attachment
From: Dudley McGarity
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:28 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: FW: Concerned CVA Hunterbolt owner

O’Neill:

Thank you for passing on your viewer’s concerns about the most recent Randy Wakeman web blog. Unfortunately, we have received quite a few inquiries regarding the garbage that this guy posts on the internet. Randy Wakeman is from the Chicago area and apparently makes the bulk of his income performing magic tricks in Chicago bar rooms. From what we know, he has never made any substantial amount of money as a “journalist” – as is evidenced by the fact that, to my knowledge, no respectable gun magazine has ever published anything that he has written. Not surprising really, as these publications are very concerned about maintaining their integrity. This is obviously not a concern of Mr. Wakeman or some of the persons and/or companies that he is, from all appearances, associated with in his smear campaign against BPI and our CVA brand. I am sure, however, that he is a very good magician, as he is obviously very capable of deceiving people in to believing whatever he wants them to believe, as is evidenced by Greg’s email to you. On a side note, you can actually see Mr. Wakeman on You Tube doing his magic tricks. It is really quite funny.

O’Neill, you have been working with us for a long time now, you have visited our factory, and you have shot our guns thousands of times, so I know that I am preaching to the choir on this. However, you may often have to address these types of emails, so I do want to make a few brief points about some of the things Mr. Wakeman says about CVA, BPI, and our manufacturer and owner, Dikar.

• Test Firing -- Mr. Wakeman denigrates us for not test firing every single muzzleloader that we produce. What he fails to mention is that no other major muzzleloading manufacturer test fires all of their guns either -- not T/C, not Knight, not Traditions. So, why does he not call all of them to task also? That is a good question, and one that I do not have an answer for. Are they paying him off? Who knows? Certainly, if Mr. Wakeman feels that all muzzleloaders should be test fired, this is a valid opinion, but singling out CVA alone as a “menace” is ridiculous and dishonest. As of now, industry standards and government regulations in the USA do not require, or even recommend, the proof firing of muzzleloaders prior to sale. In some other countries, such proof firing is required for any gun, center-fire or muzzleloader, to be sold. Any CVA gun (or T/C, or Knight, or Traditions) sold in these countries would by law have to be proof fired before it could be legally sold. Of course, being the master of illusion that he is, Mr. Wakeman does not mention this in his article. Instead, he states only that CVA guns are “illicit and illegal” in several foreign countries.

• CVA Voluntary Recall -- Yes, CVA did have a recall of one design of in-line gun that was made in 1995 and 1996 -- that’s almost 15 years ago! This is no secret. In fact, the recall is still in effect and we mention this in all of our catalogs and on our web page. The necessity for this recall made for some very difficult times for our Company, and indeed for some people who were injured with these guns. However, CVA took full responsibility at that time, and BPI (the current owner of the CVA brand) is continuing the efforts to find all 80,000 of these guns. So far, about 96% have been accounted for. For those who were injured with these guns, CVA or BPI has worked with those persons in good faith and given monetary settlements in the more serious cases. Because we have taken responsibility for these guns, no case involving a recall gun has ever gone to trial.

• Other Gun Failures – Mr. Wakeman makes mention of other (non-recall) CVA guns that have failed. Have there been such accidents? Yes, there have been, just as there have been with T/C guns, Knight guns, and Traditions guns. Muzzleloading can be a very dangerous activity, especially if proper safety precautions are not followed. And, for sure, CVA is more exposed to this kind of thing because we sell from two to ten times more guns than any other manufacturer. We have seen guns fail due to being double loaded, loaded with smokeless powder, short started, shot with the barrel obstructed, etc., etc.,. You name it, we have seen it. These types of accidents can, and do, happen with all brands of muzzleloaders, but, for some reason, Mr. Wakeman only writes about those that happen with a CVA. Only in one case am I aware of Mr. Wakeman writing about any accident involving a muzzleloader other than a CVA. The accident occurred with a Savage muzzleloader (and Mr. Wakeman just happens to be on Savage’s payroll). Anyway, a famous muzzleloading expert and writer by the name of Toby Bridges had an accident with a Savage. Unlike his positions when a CVA gun is involved, Mr. Wakeman implied that Toby Bridges misused the gun -- which he possibly could have, but such latitude is never afforded to CVA by Mr. Wakeman.


That’s just three, O’Neill. I could go on and on, but I am not sure that your computer could handle the volume if I were to defend BPI/CVA against every false accusation that Mr. Wakeman has made against us. Why does he do it? Well, it could be that Savage (a competitor of CVA) encourages him to defame us. Many of our competitors are very frustrated in their attempts to compete with CVA, as we have been the number one selling brand of muzzleloader for almost a decade now. I hope, however, that this is not true, as Savage is a very well respected company within our industry. However, that being said, I cannot understand why Savage, or its president, Ron Coburn, would associate themselves either directly or indirectly with this kind of trash. Another explanation could be that Mr. Wakeman is getting paid in some way by the lawyers that he recommends to persons who have had accidents with CVA guns. From all appearances, he is a “rainmaker” for this one particular law firm, so generating business for them by whipping up all of this stuff on the internet may well indeed be another source of income for this self proclaimed gun expert. Or, does he just carry out vendettas for this law firm? He seems pretty tight with them, and they are the only law firm that has ever taken BPI/Dikar/CVA to trial – a case that they lost by unanimous verdict.

In the end, who knows what motivates Mr. Wakeman to pursue so voraciously his “internet terrorism” of our Company. O’Neill, you have been a great friend to CVA for many years. You and I both have shot these guns together. I started with the Company right about the time that the problem with the recall guns began. Since that time, I and my employees have worked very hard to rebuild the CVA brand, and we have done so, making it the number one muzzleloading brand in the USA. Over the past 14 years I have tested each model personally. I have shot our CVA guns thousands of times. Our employees and our families shoot them. You shoot them on TV. We sponsor shoots with consumers, Boy Scouts, Bass Pro, Cabela’s, gun writers, etc., etc., -- and never, not even once, has a CVA gun failed in any of these activities.

Sorry to go on for so long, O’Neill, but this situation really bothers me. Not that I am all that mad, but more so just disappointed. Disappointed that anyone could stoop as low as Mr. Wakeman and his associates have done. It says a lot about the culture we live in today, doesn’t it? I guess the internet has become the “National Enquirer” of the modern age -- a place where anyone can say anything about anyone, no matter how false or misleading, and then claim that it is all protected by “freedom of speech.” The internet is indeed the refuge of last resort for Mr. Wakeman and his lot, unencumbered by editors, fact checkers, or any sense of journalistic integrity.

Best regards,

Dudley McGarity
CEO

www.bpiguns.com

1-800-320-8767 Ext 107
Fax 770-242-8546


From: ONeill Williams [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:18 PM

[NEVADA Badger]

I have an old CVA Kentucky. Old meaning about 23 years old. I also own several other flints and cappers. I have not had any problems with any of them at full charges, ball and mini's. I think most people today think muzzle loading is where you put a 209 in the breach with a little plastic thingy, that also contains solidified powder. Muzzle loading to me is cap or flint, powder, patch, ball and pack with a rod.

As for made outside of the states: If it is from Italy, Germany or CZ buy it with confidence. If it was made elswhere, be cautious.

[RandyWakeman]

If either Mr. Hendricks or Mr. McGarity would grant permission for their sworn depositions to be posted here, I can certainly try to help with that.

As far as http://randywakeman.com/Muzzleloadin...CVA_Menace.htm BPI / DIKAR / CVA Mr. Hendricks, and Mr. McGarity have been unable to show that anything in this article is anything less than truthful.

Is anything that Erik Zenger reported untruthful?

On December 8, 2008, I received an unsolicited e-mail from eye-witness Erik Zenger, which states in part:

Randy,

I am currently sitting in a courthouse in Des Moines, Iowa listening to the CVA attorneys trying to defend the safety of their guns. I am sick to my stomach over the blatant lies and disregard for human life and safety. It has come to my attention that it is not just tens of people hurt by their guns like they had told me-- but its like 300 or more.....the most recent was filed in federal court on November 10. Apparently the guy lost an eye and suffered brain damage.

Something has to be done. There needs to be national attention brought to this issue...how can we do this? Please let me know what we can do.
Further, on December 9, 2008, Erik Zenger reported:
"What I heard yesterday was this.....

1) 1 out of every 25 barrels is tested with a go - no go tool to see if the threads for the breach plug are the right size....thats a mere 4%.

2) Every gun that leaves the factory for the USA has a proof stamp on it, even though they have not been to the proof house. The Dikar guy said that they have no documentation from the proof house authorizing them to do this, he had just been told by "someone" at Dikar (he could not remember who it was) to just go ahead and put a proof mark on each barrel. If a Dikar barrel is to be sold in Europe (which they have not been for about 4 years) they ALL need to go through proof testing.

3) 4 barrels a month are sent to the proof house to be pressure tested. They fire the barrel with a load that is equal to 2 times that which is recommended. These are not randomly selected barrels they just grab 4 consecutive out of a batch. And that is 4 total for all the different barrels they make."

How is it that putting PROOF MARKS on barrels that have never been fired, as Erik Zenger has reported above, without any authority from any proof house to do so (also as reported by Erik Zenger) is not total misrepresentation and fraud?

I'm interested in a straight answer to that one. Has ANY CVA gun EVER sold EVER been proof-tested or even so much as fired with a standard working load prior to sale? Any of them?

Do you have any idea where your barrels actually come from before you machine them? Do you even know what specific material they are made from? Have you ever tested them with the very loads you recommend? How is it that a "three pellet 150 grain equivalent load" is okay, but 100 grains of loose powder is "MAX"?

Aren't you aware that Toby Bridges has been a very loud critic of CVA, calling BPI exhibiting a total disregard for consumer safety? Doc White? Erik Brooker? Hodgdon Powder? The CIP? Aren't you aware of the CIP's stance that what you are doing is "completely unacceptable"?

Don't you remember the injuries to Erik Zenger suffered from a CVA inline, Jimmy Dial was injured by a CVA inline, Troy Cashdollar was injured by a CVA inline, Eliot Best was injured by a CVA inline, Mark Kohn was injured by a CVA inline?

H. P. White, the most reputable independent firearms ballistic lab in the United States, had a lot to say about CVA. Don't you remember?

I can help refresh your memories if you'd like.

[deltal767]

now i see what your talking about but i have a few question to ask
1 was this a recall rifle?
2 what kind of load was he using? (min or max )
3 what kind of powder Smokeless or black powder?
4 could it be shooters error Dbl charge short seating ?
thank you

[FrontierGander]

Does Savage,knight, TC, NEF, Remington (Traditions) test EVERY barrel they sell?

If CVA was so unsafe, you would not be doing reviews on them.

Anything to say about the Bergara barrel?

[longranger]

Anyone who thinks that CVA,:barf:Traditions,:barf:Lyman :barf:and the Cabelas "Hawken":barf: are good rifles need to spend some time looking at the really good ones.I do not consider Pedersoli a "good one"but alot better than the previous mentions and safe.Pedersoli uses good steel only in their barrels, locks, thimbles trigger guards always feel "cheap".T/C is a decent rifle and certainly safe.
I do not understand folks who will spend a $1000.00 on a C/F rifle but will only spend $200.00 for a M/L you get what you pay for especially when it's made off shore.A good M/L will cost as much as a good production American C/F rifle without going to a custom.Unfortunately we do not have any American CO.'s
building really good M/L's (traditional rifles)There is a reason that you do not see many used Browning M/L's in the for sale columnThe folks who have have them recognize quality and they were never as expensive as their C/F rifles.

[darkgael]

Don't you remember the injuries to Erik Zenger suffered from a CVA inline, Jimmy Dial was injured by a CVA inline, Troy Cashdollar was injured by a CVA inline, Eliot Best was injured by a CVA inline, Mark Kohn was injured by a CVA inline?

Those injuries, I take it, are a matter of record. For comparison's sake, where are and what are the citations for injuries suffered by shooters using other brands of Mlers? How do these compare proportionately to the CVA citations in terms of injuries per number of firearms sold?
Without such information, the citations about CVA are relatively useless.
Pete

[DrLaw]

(Sigh)

One person's crusade, for whatever reason. Where are these hundreds of people?

I've seen more photos of Smith & Wesson revolvers and even a Ruger revolver having been blown up than I have ever seen of muzzleloaders.

I've seen photos of centerfire rifles with burst barrels.

Each time, it was due to double loads, or other operator error (reloads with wrong powder, things in barrels, etc...) with the exception of a recent photo of a barrel blown away at the frame.

That translates to shooter error, not gun-maker error.

I'm a lawyer, and I do not like it that lawyers have assisted in getting the gun locks on guns (stupid answer for stupid people) or tight medicine lids (knee-jerk reaction to stupid parents, people and kids), warning labels on coffee cups (oh it's hot, really?) or medical costs to skyrocket because a handful of people had heart attacks when taking a medicine that helps millions of people, etc...

I read through this thread and I have yet to see something definative here. As a prosecutor, I used to tell the cops who would tell me that somebody was a criminal, "fine, get the evidence, until then, no charges".

Wakeman, evidence please, that it was the manufacturers fault. That means metalurgical tests, definitive proof it was not operator error, and that the fault solely rests with the manufacturer.

Personally, I don't care about CVA, Traditions, Knight, or any other manufacturer. I want to have fun with guns and fun in the forums (meaning learning REAL things, entertainment, and relaxation). Seeing a thread entitled
"Are we buying bombs?" fulfills none of those things I am looking for in these threads.

Evidence, or shut up, please .

The Doc is out now and shaking his head.

[Gatofeo]

Fact is CVA has been selling cheap muzzle loading guns since the 70 `s and selling more guns than others too .. and selling to more inexperienced first time shooters than all the better made gun companys .T/C for one . So i figure with this many guns in the hands of the most inexperienced there`s probally been the most mistakes made such as heavy loaded short started loads maybe even some with smokeless powders ...
-- Sundance44s

Alas, I must respectfully disagree with you, Sundance.
I have a CVA Mountain Rifle, .50-caliber, I purchased new about 1981. Its browned barrel is stamped, MADE IN USA.
It is a well-made and accurate rifle -- just as well made in 1981 as the Thompson Centers.
So, to accuse CVA of selling junk "since the 70 ' s" is untrue.
In fact, I recall that I paid more for this CVA than a Thompson Center because its steel was browned and all furniture was steel, pewter or German silver.
I went with the CVA because it looked like an original gun and lacked the garish, cheap-to-machine brass and modern sights that Thompson Center put on its rifles.
With a proper load of black powder or Pyrodex, the CVA or Thompson Center rifle of 1981 was entirely safe.
Alas, I do agree that at some point CVA began having its barrels made in Spain, and quality suffered greatly. CVA rifles bearing the MADE IN USA stamp on their barrel command much higher prices than those made in Spain, for good reason.

Sorry. Not to be a pain in the neck, but I had to respond to your blanket statement that CVA has made nothing but junk since the 1970s.

Also stamped on my CVA barrel is BLACK POWDER ONLY. If someone throws smokeless powder down their barrel, it's their fault. Not the fault of the gun.maker.

As for more folks learning black powder by buying a CVA, I rather doubt this. Thompson Center predates CVA by a number of years. As I recall, T/C came out with its black powder rifles in the late 1960s. CVA came out with their rifles in the mid 1970s.
Thompson Center rifles were, and remain, enormously popular from the beginning. When I met black powder shooters in the 1970s and 1980s, they almost always had a T/C rifle. There was a smattering of Hopkins & Allen and an occasional Lyman, but T/C seemed to rule the roost.

I never saw a blown-up CVA, T/C, Hopkins & Allen or Lyman but I'm sure plenty were blown by folks who were ignorant of their needs.
Back in the 1960s and 1970s, there were few books on black powder. Lyman led the pack, followed by a little booklet that T/C put out. The internet didn't exist, so you couldn't easily get access to factory information or the experience of others.
Though DuPont manufacted black powder, I don't recall it once publishing a manual on how to use its product in various firearms. Its entire booklet was dedicated to the smokeless powders it produced.

There was an incredible amount of incorrect and downright dangerous information coming from the lips of other shooters in the 1960s on up to the 1980s. There still is, but most of today's shooters are better informed.
I recall "back in the day" that know-it-alls were advising folks to load a little smokeless powder in their black powder rifles and revolvers for cleaner burning! There are still morons out there advising this.
Folks were loading two patched balls, or even two conical bullets, down large charges of black powder for their "bear load" and giving a knowing wink to newcomers. God knows how many guns blew at this practice.

At what point CVA's quality changed for the worse I don't know. I suspect it was in the late 80s or early 90s, as it seems that rifles from these eras obviously lack the qualify of the one I bought in 1981.

In today's litigious society, I take with a bag of salt any lawsuit claiming manufacturer negligence. Lawsuits have become the "Redneck Lottery" today. If CVA guns have blown with crippling or deadly effect, I'd more likely suspect the loading practices of the shooter than the gun.

On a final note, I don't recall hearing of many guns blowing until the advent of propellant pellets, sabots, jacketed bullets, black powder substitutes, 209 primers and the like. I believe that these features encourage people to "push the envelope" and enter the Realm of Dangerous Practices.

In simpler times, when folks used black powder, lead balls, patches, greased lead bullets and percussion caps muzzleloading was much safer.
Today, the proliferation of "modern advances" has obscured what is, and is not, a safe practice.
And a pox on Savage for marketing a muzzleloading rifle that uses smokeless powder! God knows how many rifles have been damaged or destroyed because someone used the wrong smokeless powder in their Savage, or thought that since the Savage could take it, their rifle could too.

Perhaps the muzzleloading hobby is a process of Darwinism at work.

I hope you don't take my observations as a personal attack, Sundance. I admire and respect your knowledge and I've often profited from it, but felt I should respond to your blanket statement about CVAs.
So many newer shooters out there may not recall the day when CVA made high-quality firearms.

[armsmaster270]

I see Randy was forced to come out a whole two posts a year for 4 years quite active

[mykeal]

This is quite typical of Mr. Wakeman. He posts, or writes, a long rant against CVA (only - no other company is ever attacked by him) alleging many failures and 'naming names', all with an air of fact. But he never, and I repeat, NEVER, answers the requests for documentation or details - he just disappears. He just has no credibility; it would be so easy to do - all he'd have to do is provide the documentation and he'd be a hero. I've come to believe there is no substance to his claims, because there is no verifiable basis to them.

[FrontierGander]

Anyone that calls my .58cal cva mountain rifle cheap- Gonna get pimp slapped


I just picked up a CVA Hawken .54cal made in 1996. The color i dont like but she lays tight groups!

[longranger]

CVA:barf: cheap,cheap,cheap,cheap,cheap,cheap,cheap,cheap.cheap.
Bring your lunch cowboy you're gonna need it.

[Hawg]

I ain't skeert of no CVA. I had my Investarms .50 rebarreled to .54 with a modified CVA barrel. Anybody says they're no good or dangerous doesn't know what they're talking about and can go pee up a rope. And just for the record Toby Bridges is the worst thing to happen to traditional muzzleloading to ever come down the pike.

[dm1333]

Started a new thread so I won't be guilty of jacking this one.

[Mr Odd Six]

Ill even go as far as saying 90% of ALL production guns are cheap crap.

Compared to semi and custom rifles, you build yourself.

The mere quality of American made parts, let alone the craftsmanship.

Ive been shooting BP for decades, and have not shot a production gun in 20 years, let alone owned one.

CVA is the bottom of the barrel. Unless you can find a Hipower, which is a jap CVA copy.

O might shoot a Shilo Sharps, or Parker-Hale rifle, if one could be found.
Other than that, I dont let friends buy import production guns.

It would have to be a left handed rifle and I would really prefer a flintlock.

Jim makes left handed kits

http://www.flintlocks.com/index.htm

[DrLaw]

Ive been shooting BP for decades, and have not shot a production gun in 20 years, let alone owned one.

Then how in the world would you know what today's guns are like? I've been shooting since I was 18, and am 53 now (though I wish I was still younger! ) . I have only seen the quality rise on most all guns. While there is some crud out there, it is the case in life that there will always be some crud out there.

My Uberti's are pretty much flawless, my Ruger's the same, my Savage Model 11 is great, my DPMS/Doublestar AR is super, and I could go on and on.

A statement about guns being bad and then not having shot or owned a production gun for 20 years is what is called in my business 'impeachable', which means not worth the time that it took to write it. Sorry, but that just does not hold water, or as Abe Lincoln said, 'That plow won't scour".

The Doc is out now.