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Old May 5, 2019, 12:48 PM   #51
tipoc
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Depending on the reasoning behind carrying an empty chamber, a wheelgun might need to be carried with the NEXT chamber empty, or the chamber actually under the hammer empty, or both the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber empty.

One would prevent the gun from going off if the trigger were accidentally pulled, the other would prevent the firearm from going off if dropped or struck.
I have not met anyone who did this, the bolded part I mean. It can only be done with a da revolver. First I've heard of it. Extremely cautious individual I would assume.

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Old May 5, 2019, 01:32 PM   #52
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I find it interesting that advocates for Israeli carry think "all you have to do is train yourself to rack your gun after drawing it," and yet somehow one cannot be trained to simply flip a thumb safety off. And yet I've read countless posts from concerned members about how people shouldn't carry 1911s because no matter how much they train, one day in a critical moment they're going to forget to flip that thumb safety down and die while trying to vainly pull the trigger.

Why doesn't that same reasoning apply to Israeli carry? Is anyone really thinking that somehow training to rack the slide is any different from training to flip off the thumb safety?

Seriously, if one can be trained to rack a slide after every draw (as tedious as that might seem), what's stopping anyone from learning to move their thumb down 1/4 of an inch as one rotates their gun to the horizontal? Seems like that would be a lot easier to do, allows for one-handed draws, and would be just as safe if not safer.

So in conclusion, it seems obvious that if you're worried about Glock leg or whatever, your first best option would be to buy a gun with a thumb safety, the best of which come on 1911s, and train yourself to move your thumb up and down a quarter of an inch. Problem solved without having to train yourself to rack the slide every time you draw.
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Old May 5, 2019, 01:54 PM   #53
Glenn E. Meyer
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Stop making sense and it is a good comparison.

However, I have seen folks in matches forget the safety. If it killed someone on the street, I don't know.

I saw and read that one thing might mess up the draw and safety off routine. That was if you were drawing the gun from a not standard position or picking it up in a hurry from a box. That isn't a standard 'muscle' memory scenario and some folks screwed it up. I saw that.

It's similar to folks not being able to find a red dot in the same scenario. With their standard draw, they saw the sight - with non-standard it took a bit.

That being said, it is a good point. I've practiced the draw and safety routine quite a bit. Might I mess it up, maybe but I've tried.
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Old May 5, 2019, 02:08 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
Stop making sense and it is a good comparison.
Sorry, I forgot, we're on the interwebs; making sense is verboten, n'est-ce pas?
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Old May 5, 2019, 02:13 PM   #55
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I wonder if - hate me for this - if you Israeli carry and then your good shoot is 'ambiguous' and off you got to trial.

The prosecution will say that you have admitted you lack competence in your ability to handle a firearm and thus had bad judgment. The defense will say, you demonstrated sensible concern to carry safely.

Wonder how that turns out if the jury members look at the Internet?

We are sort of getting to the end of meaningful discussion.
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Old May 5, 2019, 02:34 PM   #56
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However, I have seen folks in matches forget the safety. If it killed someone on the street, I don't know.
Well, I can’t say it was solely responsible for the death; but there was a convenience store robbery where the clerk tried to shoot his attacker, stopped looked at his Taurus 902 Slim, flipped the safety off and brought it back up just in time to get shot in the chest and killed.

He also had the gun in a drawer with no round chambered (going to the box thing you referenced). He might have survived one of those choices; but all of them combined stopped him from even getting a round off.
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Old May 5, 2019, 04:19 PM   #57
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So Glenn, your concern is about court-

What's the chance that spending time on the internet talking about how to shoot 0.5 seconds faster will count against you should a prosecutor determine one was too fast on the trigger?
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Old May 5, 2019, 04:27 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Well, I can’t say it was solely responsible for the death; but there was a convenience store robbery where the clerk tried to shoot his attacker, stopped looked at his Taurus 902 Slim, flipped the safety off and brought it back up just in time to get shot in the chest and killed.

He also had the gun in a drawer with no round chambered (going to the box thing you referenced). He might have survived one of those choices; but all of them combined stopped him from even getting a round off.
And here's a case where condition 3 got someone killed recently:
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...0d6e4f670.html

The gun in question was a Glock. That info is in a subsequent article which I can't find at the moment.
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Old May 5, 2019, 04:35 PM   #59
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Quote:
And here's a case where condition 3 got someone killed recently:
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...0d6e4f670.html

The gun in question was a Glock. That info is in a subsequent article which I can't find at the moment.
And i am sure there are examples of people accidentally killing themselves or others because their firearms was in condition 1.
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Old May 5, 2019, 04:58 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by manta49 View Post
And i am sure there are examples of people accidentally killing themselves or others because their firearms was in condition 1.
I'm sure there are such cases. The point I was trying to make wasn't that carrying in C-1 is safer than carrying in C-3. My point (which actually was a counter-point to Bart's post) was that C-3 isn't some kind of panacea for safe carry.

In my inexpert opinion, it's probable that carrying in C-3 is just as likely, if not more likely, to promote pressing the trigger on an empty chamber in a critical situation.

But without hard data, there's no realistic way to know for sure.
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Old May 5, 2019, 05:12 PM   #61
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But without hard data, there's no realistic way to know for sure.
True.
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Old May 5, 2019, 05:22 PM   #62
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You are not equipping an army. If you do not feel your gun is safe in condition 1 because it is not drop safe or the trigger pull is too short or light buy a different gun. Manual safety, da, external hammer, whatever. There are a myriad of choices out there. Still want to carry in condition 3? Your call. But no it is not faster. Yes it requires two hands. Comparing yourself to highly trained operatives of one particular military force? As long as you have undergone their training feel free
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Old May 5, 2019, 08:00 PM   #63
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I have not met anyone who did this, the bolded part I mean. It can only be done with a da revolver. First I've heard of it. Extremely cautious individual I would assume.
It's the same rationale behind carrying a modern DAO type semi-auto with the chamber empty to prevent a discharge if the trigger is pulled unintentionally. If a person is carrying empty chamber to prevent the gun from firing when the trigger is pulled, then for a semi-auto DAO type pistol, the chamber would be empty--but for a DA revolver, the next chamber (not the one directly under the hammer) would be empty since that's the one that would fire if the trigger were pulled.
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Old May 5, 2019, 11:32 PM   #64
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Saw that on the 1970s TV 'Police Story'.
Sarge tells rookie: "Of course you keep the chamber under the hammer empty, but leave the next one up empty, too. That way, if somebody grabs your gun, it won't go off the first try and you will have time to draw your backup."
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Old May 6, 2019, 08:51 AM   #65
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Bartholomew Roberts, you said:
Quote:
looked at his Taurus 902 Slim, flipped the safety off and brought it back up just in time to get shot in the chest and killed. He also had the gun in a drawer with no round chambered
I trust your veracity but that seems odd that the fellow had his gun in a drawer with no round chambered, retrieved it, chambered a round, then put the safety on (!) for some reason, then tried to shoot the robber, forgetting he had just put the safety on, and then looked at his pistol and was shot. I thought a main point of leaving the chamber empty was to not rely on the safety. It appears what cost him his life was not the empty chamber, but the improper handling of the safety. He seemed to select the worst of both worlds.
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Old May 6, 2019, 09:48 AM   #66
Glenn E. Meyer
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If he was taught or practiced, putting on the safety after chambering, that muscle memory is the culprit.

The whole issue boils down, as said before, to the competency of the user. Let's stop dancing around that.

I get that most folks with CHL, CCW creds, never train beyond the state mandated courses and if practice, it's usually some rounds on the square range or at the 'ranch'. No reps with drawing the gun.

They have to decide if they risk not getting the gun into play if quick response is needed vs. shooting themselves.

I prefer to reduce the latter through competence. The choice is the user's.

The positives in unchambered carry are in contrived situations or in military usage. For a civilian SD carry mode, it's more likely a handicap.

If the trigger pull scares you, you can find DAO semis, DA/SA guns or revolvers. With the latter, whether you have a round ready to go on the trigger pull depends on your evaluation of your competency.
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Old May 6, 2019, 10:31 AM   #67
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From Jim W,

Quote:
Saw that on the 1970s TV 'Police Story'.
Sarge tells rookie: "Of course you keep the chamber under the hammer empty, but leave the next one up empty, too. That way, if somebody grabs your gun, it won't go off the first try and you will have time to draw your backup."
With the move away from wheelguns in the hands of cops little bits of lore are lost. I actually do recall this now. Not from the TV show, but from life. Still, seldom use in the last 2 or three decades.

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Old May 6, 2019, 10:53 AM   #68
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Quote:
And here's a case where condition 3 got someone killed recently:
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...0d6e4f670.html
As I recall in this case condition three had nothing to do with it. The Glock was stored in a backpack several yards away from where the two men were skinning a bear. Two bears ran up on them and attacked the man who owned the Glock. The other man than ran to the back pack, got the Glock, but knew nothing about the gun and did not know why it would not fire.

Quote:
It was a warm day — peaking at 73 degrees in nearby Moran — and while field dressing the elk Uptain removed his shirt and left it and his black nylon shoulder strap holding a Glock 10-millimeter handgun 5 or 10 yards uphill of the carcass. A canister of bear spray was slung from a hip holster on Uptain’s left side, but Chubon’s bear spray was left in his pack because it had “become cumbersome carrying it on the horse,” he told investigators.

Uptain was removing the bull’s head, with Chubon nearby, when they heard a sound of rocks tumbling, presaging the attack.

“Mr. Chubon stated he looked up and saw two grizzly bears running full speed directly toward them,” ...

Uptain’s first reaction, Chubon recalled, was “waving his arms and yelling” in the fleeting moment before he was struck and repeatedly bitten. The larger of the two bruins, an adult sow, was the aggressor, while its grown cub was initially “just moving around in the background.”

Chubon’s first reaction was to retrieve Uptain’s Glock from the nearby gear pile, but he didn’t know how to function the slide on the top of the firearm that chambers a bullet.
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...01f75343d.html

So to me, hard to blame condition 3. It's more the fault of the poor choices the guide made, and the second fella made with his bear spray.

The decision by Uptain to carry condition 3 in his back pack isn't the problem either. That's not a bad choice in and of itself, it's an option. But once they, were actively tracking a bleeding animal in bear country the gun should have been ready. Once they found the animal and decided to skin and butcher it there, the 10 mm Glock should have been at hand and made ready in condition 2 and on your hip. Same as the decision of the other fella to leave his bear spray in his back pack. Poor choices.

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2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
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Old May 6, 2019, 11:42 AM   #69
Bartholomew Roberts
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the 10 mm Glock should have been at hand and made ready in condition 2 and on your hip.
How do you put a Glock in condition 2?
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Old May 6, 2019, 11:58 AM   #70
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As I recall in this case condition three had nothing to do with it. The Glock was stored in a backpack several yards away from where the two men were skinning a bear. Two bears ran up on them and attacked the man who owned the Glock. The other man than ran to the back pack, got the Glock, but knew nothing about the gun and did not know why it would not fire.
Because it was in Condition 3. Had it been in Condition 1, it would have fired just fine. Had it been in Condition 2, the pair would have been no better off because the Glock would have been broken.
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Old May 6, 2019, 12:29 PM   #71
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Quote:
How do you put a Glock in condition 2?
Good point. Put a round in the chamber it's ready to go, that's what I meant. Condition one also doesn't apply.

The conditions don't work with striker fired guns. Well I figure condition three could apply.

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Last edited by tipoc; May 6, 2019 at 12:47 PM.
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Old May 6, 2019, 12:46 PM   #72
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Quote:
Because it was in Condition 3.
Condition three wasn't the issue. I explained the issues.

The guide had the gun in his backpack yards away from him as he butchered a deer in bear country.

His partner was a bowhunter and did not have a firearm. His bear spray was in his backpack also yards away. The guide made a decision to not show the bow hunter how to make ready the Glock.

All the two had on them to protect themselves was one can of bear spray against two charging bears.

The problem was that the extra bear spray and the Glock were in two separate backpacks yards away, and not ready to go and on their persons. The Glock should have been made ready by loading a round in the chamber prior to gutting the deer.

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Old May 6, 2019, 02:33 PM   #73
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If you have ever heard of Col Cooper's color coded conditions of awarenwss you would probably believe the Israili LE and military are probably in a permanent state of "Condition Yellow"...this is a mental readiness condition and not a firearm's condition....condition Yellow is being constantly aware of your surroundings...I think M. Ayoob compared it to the way a person mental state SHOULD be when driving a car... BEWARE THE OTHER DRIVERS!!!

This mental state should have as much to do with defending yourself as the condition of your weapon.
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Old May 6, 2019, 02:38 PM   #74
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Quote:
And here's a case where condition 3 got someone killed recently:
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...0d6e4f670.html The guide made a decision to not show the bow hunter how to make ready the Glock.
Not a good example, i would assume someone carrying a firearm in any condition would know how to make ready their firearm.
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Old May 6, 2019, 03:05 PM   #75
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Wow, you guys like to get into the minutiae.

Here's what we need to know:

There was a deadly situation.

The gun was stored where both men knew where it was.

The gun was in C-3.

When the attack occurred, one of the men went for the gun but was confused by it being in C-3, and was unable to make it fire.

This confusion caused the man to throw the gun at the bear, rendering it ineffective for the remainder of the incident.

If the gun had been a revolver or a DA/SA, or simply been in C-1, it would've fired. Whether that would've saved the other man's life is a matter of debate. But it would've fired.

Everything else is just window dressing.
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