The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 4, 2019, 01:58 PM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,947
Well, if you think you are more likely to shoot yourself than an attacker with a particular set-up, then by all means carry with an empty chamber.

It would be interesting to see if the 0.4 second difference in DNS’s link increased even more with a cover garment to clear.

And of course, the real trick is you need two hands available and I can give you several anecdotes of gunfights that didn’t happen that way.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 02:15 PM   #27
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,747
Take advice and then carry it what ever way you feel comfortable with, its you carrying it not them.
manta49 is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 03:44 PM   #28
Chui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2004
Posts: 1,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_Mac View Post
I carry a pistol nearly always. I'm not afraid of people, but I understand that there are dangerous people and I prefer not to be a victim.



I have not trained with the Israelis. I do know that increasing complexity increases my chances of making a mistake. A mistake in a deadly encounter sounds bad to me. I'll take my chances with a loaded handgun.



Glenn I haven't made it to the mountains, but they are on the horizon.


This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Chui is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 04:12 PM   #29
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,317
One thing to keep in mind is that how tests are set up can have a significant impact in how the results are interpreted.

Let's say we have two shooters with exactly identical skills who will compete to provide us data points.

Scenario 1.
The two shooters will compete on a complicated stage with 10 paper targets requiring 2 shots each, 5 falling steel targets and one Texas Star. 3 mandatory reloads are required and the shooter must traverse a distance of 25 yards in the course of shooting the stage.

One will start from Condition 3 in the holster and the other will start from Condition 1.

After both shooters have sent about 35-45 rounds downrange and the scoring is over, we find they both shot identical splits and had identical hits. Our condition 1 shooter managed to shoot the stage in 25.3 seconds with 3 more seconds added for penalties for a total score of 28.3. Our condition 3 shooter was 0.5 seconds slower getting his gun into action initially but everything else was the same--resulting in a total score of 28.8.

So the difference is that the Condition 3 shooter took just a hair under 2% longer to complete the stage.

Scenario 2
The two shooters will draw and fire 3 shots on a single target 3 yards away.

After both shooters have performed, the Condition 1 shooter manages the feat in 2 seconds. The Condition 3 shooter is, once again, 0.5 seconds slower due to the extra manipulation required for a score of 2.5 seconds.

Now the difference is that the Condition 3 shooter took 25% longer to accomplish the required task.

Scenario 3
The two shooters will draw and fire a single shot on a single target 3 yards away.

Our Condition 1 shooter manages to accomplish this in 1.5 seconds, the Condition 3 shooter takes half a second longer--just as in the previous 2 tests.

Now the difference is that the Condition 3 shooter took 33% longer to complete the task.

Thoughts
Which of those three scenarios actually tells us the most about the difference in the two techniques? The one where the test results only include the time from the timer to the first shot on target, or the one where there are another 40 shots or so, movement and reloads after the first shot is fired?

When designing a test to determine the differences in two approaches, the goal should be to keep the test as simple as possible so ONLY the differences in the two approaches are being measured. Adding in a lot of other factors having nothing to do with the issue actually being explored dilutes the results and can make incorrect conclusions much more likely.

More to think about...
Scenario 4
At the timer, the shooter grabs a prone 150lb dummy that simulates an injured family member, and while dragging the dummy to cover, must draw and engage a single target at 10 yards with a single shot.

Scenario 5
The shooter must keep one arm raised above his head during the exercise to simulate shielding the head against downward blows from a contact weapon. At the timer, the shooter must draw and engage a single target at contact distance.

Determining the likely results of these last two scenarios are left as thought experiments for the reader.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 06:23 PM   #30
Rangerrich99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,118
"More to think about...
Scenario 4
At the timer, the shooter grabs a prone 150lb dummy that simulates an injured family member, and while dragging the dummy to cover, must draw and engage a single target at 10 yards with a single shot.

Scenario 5
The shooter must keep one arm raised above his head during the exercise to simulate shielding the head against downward blows from a contact weapon. At the timer, the shooter must draw and engage a single target at contact distance.

Determining the likely results of these last two scenarios are left as thought experiments for the reader."


I've had to draw my pistol twice one-handed (fortunately didn't have to fire in one instance and never had to fire at a person). It's for this reason that I could never carry in Condition 3. If that situation had occurred just slightly differently I would've been standing there holding an essentially empty weapon and likely would've been seriously injured/killed and possibly my fiance as well.

Also, I've taken more than a 20 training classes and I've seen a few people attempt to use the Israeli method during drills. I've never seen one that could execute a draw from concealment, rack the slide, and fire an aimed round into the A-box at 7 yards in less than 1.5 seconds, much less 1.2 seconds.

From Condition 1 I can regularly execute the drill in 0.95 seconds, give or take about 0.1 seconds.

I'm not saying it can't be done in 1.2 seconds, but I'm guessing that most people, with the average degree of training I see in classes regularly, probably couldn't meet that standard. I'm 90% certain I couldn't do it consistently, and I'm neither highly trained nor highly skilled. My instructors tell me that I'm "above average" skill-wise. Which I take to mean that I'm better than most of the people one regularly sees trying to hit a barn door at your typical range.
Rangerrich99 is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 06:29 PM   #31
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
I have not trained with the Israelis. I do know that increasing complexity increases my chances of making a mistake. A mistake in a deadly encounter sounds bad to me. I'll take my chances with a loaded handgun.
And most people that accidentally shoot themselves or someone else obviously had a round in the chamber. I could post lots of incidents of people shooting themselves in incidents of holstering etc, a firearm with a round in the chamber. You could put that down to poor training, but i wonder how many people that are being advised to carry a firearm with a round in the chamber have the experience and training to do that safely.
manta49 is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 07:46 PM   #32
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 1,944
Quote:
I could post lots of incidents of people shooting themselves in incidents of holstering etc, a firearm with a round in the chamber. You could put that down to poor training, but i wonder how many people that are being advised to carry a firearm with a round in the chamber have the experience and training to do that safely.
The same logic could hold that the people inadequately trained to carry a loaded firearm are inadequately trained to carry any firearm. Hard to shoot yourself without a gun. Carrying in condition 3, and effectively employing the firearm if needed, likely requires more training. Personally I question if some of the people carrying a firearm have adequate retention abilities to carry a firearm. But if we start a conversation along those lines it works against us.
__________________
A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace
though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation)
Lohman446 is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 08:02 PM   #33
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,056
Research has shown that approximately 1% of the carry population has any training beyond the mandated state class- if there is one. So for the Israeli carry folks who fear they will pull the trigger - if you carry a revolver, do you have the cylinder chamber that will rotate under the hammer with a trigger pull empty? Human factors research shows that a screw up will pull a revolver trigger as well as a semi.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 08:49 PM   #34
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,843
Manta49 people negligently discharge a weapon because of failure to follow proper safety practices. We've already covered this. Someone without the training, practice and common sense to follow good safety practices cannot safely carry a gun regardless of condition. Once the Israeli conscript has a round chambered he better have the training and experience to handle it safely or he is a threat to himself and everyone else. Blaming the gun for unsafe behavior is not reasonable.

The very real chance that only one hand will be available in a deadly encounter is reason enough to find a workable method of carrying a loaded handgun. The chance of short stroking a pistol when chambering a round in the heat of the moment is another. Add the additional time need to put a round on target and condition 3 is not a good option for most of us in my opinion.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin
K_Mac is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 09:24 PM   #35
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,056
Got another question. So after you draw and rack, tell me how you reholster ? Can’t just stick the gun back in as it is now chambered?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 4, 2019, 09:43 PM   #36
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,317
Quote:
i wonder how many people that are being advised to carry a firearm with a round in the chamber have the experience and training to do that safely.
So far I haven't really advised anyone to do anything other than to think about the issue and the information available on the topic from a logical perspective.

There are certainly some circumstances under which I would carry with an empty chamber. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

1. If I were going to carry a handgun without a manual safety without putting it in a holster that covers and protects the trigger, I would carry it with an empty chamber.

2. If I were going to carry a handgun that didn't have internal passive safeties to prevent the firearm from discharging when dropped or struck and the handgun were going to be carried in anything other than a flap holster with some sort of closure/retention method for the flap, I would carry it with an empty chamber.

3. If I were going to openly carry a handgun in public without using a retention holster, I would carry it with an empty chamber AND with a backup concealed handgun (carried WITH a chambered round) that I could draw immediately if someone were to grab my primary handgun.

4. If I were not willing to do at least a minimal amount of "dry" holster practice on a regular basis to insure good familiarity with correct drawing and reholstering techniques, I would not carry with a chambered round. More likely I just wouldn't carry at all under those circumstances.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 07:04 AM   #37
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
The very real chance that only one hand will be available in a deadly encounter is reason enough to find a workable method of carrying a loaded handgun. The chance of short stroking a pistol when chambering a round in the heat of the moment is another. Add the additional time need to put a round on target and condition 3 is not a good option for most of us in my opinion.
I am not saying the Israeli carry is the way to go at all times in all circumstances, but it is a option in certain circumstances. Some examples in post 36. Its the my way or no way paper weight etc argument i have a issue with. My view would be proper safety training that would allow a individual to carry safely in whatever way the chose to carry.
manta49 is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 07:58 AM   #38
jonnyc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 1,398
"Got another question. So after you draw and rack, tell me how you reholster ? Can’t just stick the gun back in as it is now chambered?"

Uh.......just the same way you would re-holster any pistol with a round chambered. The Israeli Method doesn't deal with that issue differently than any other method of presentation.
__________________
2016 PA Cartridge Collector Show!!!
Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance
Details: http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...75#post6228275
jonnyc is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 08:14 AM   #39
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
jonnyc
Senior Member

"Got another question. So after you draw and rack, tell me how you reholster ? Can’t just stick the gun back in as it is now chambered?"

Uh.......just the same way you would re-holster any pistol with a round chambered. The Israeli Method doesn't deal with that issue differently than any other method of presentation.
Could you not just unload it before holstering it if you wanted.
manta49 is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 08:22 AM   #40
agtman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,155
Quote:
I also suggest that the Israeli carry folks take some FOF training with simulated urban incidents in close quarters to see if it is practical.
For example, you get into an altercation with an enraged person in a store. You might want to be ready to engage your gun and draw it, but conceal it behind your back. If you have to draw and rack, you increase the tension in the scenario and make your gun visible before necessary.
Pretty much agree.

The unchambered-round carry method for Mil groups or L.E. is one thing, but what might work for them - in the 'unit' or collective context as part of a larger training ritual - can be impractical for civilians for immediate defense of self or family.

To me, the biggest downside, even if you repeatedly practice drawing and chambering dummy rounds to get the 'move' and 'flow' down pat, is that it inserts an additional gross movement that consumes time - sure, maybe only a second or two - but that's still time you may not have in a close-up and rapidly-evolving violent encounter. It slows your present ability to engage the attacker with DF where it's warranted.

Of course, we're also talking about semi-auto pistols here. What about the popular 5- or 6-shot J-frame snubby revolvers a lot of folks carry?

Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?

Last edited by agtman; May 5, 2019 at 09:58 AM.
agtman is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 08:34 AM   #41
kozak6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 3,023
Israeli carry is an obsolete artifact, promotion of such is solely due to specific cultural inertia, and this isn't generally relevant for American shooters.

Scene: you are in a desperate scenario. You need to train as many otherwise inexperienced people as fast as possible to operate a pistol, except everyone in the class has a different pistol (a significant amount of which might not be drop safe).

The solution? You teach the most basic operation possible that works on every semiautomatic pistol, regardless.

If you have silly things like the luxury of being able to select a modern drop-safe pistol and the ability to train as much as you care to, I would dare to suggest that perhaps Israeli carry is perhaps inappropriate.

The average gunfight lasts mere seconds. Are you so skilled and lucky that you specifically intend to waste the first half of the gunfight merely activating your pistol?

With the slightest amount of forum searching or Googling, you can find videos where Israeli carry has failed. Without really trying, you can probably find videos of a jeweler taking three tries at the slide and failing, a shopkeeper fumbling the slide rack getting himself and his son killed, and even a sandwich store robber inducing a malfunction upon slide rack. Sure, "Glock leg" is a thing, but if you are such a firearm enthusiast as to be on this forum, it's probably not relevant.

So tldr; if I can train at my leisure with a modern pistol of my choice, why should I limit myself?
kozak6 is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 09:07 AM   #42
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?
Most modern revolvers have a hammer block and the firing pin/ hammer can not contact the cartridge unless the trigger is pulled.

Last edited by manta49; May 5, 2019 at 09:22 AM.
manta49 is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 09:19 AM   #43
osbornk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2012
Location: Marion, Va
Posts: 1,403
I have 4 semi-autos that I carried with an empty chamber because I didn't trust my ability and confidence in case of an emergency. I felt I wouldn't be able to load and shoot quickly enough in an emergency. I bought a new (used)snub nose hammerless 357 Magnum that I load with 38 special +P. I am comfortable carrying it even with the limited capacity.
osbornk is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 09:23 AM   #44
RETG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2009
Location: Somewhere in Idaho
Posts: 369
All this talk about speed for firing the first round. It's all great if there are no problems that arise .

Let me add a real life problem (happened to me). I'm right handed, my left arm was made incapable of use as I drew my weapon; so how do I rack the slide and load a round?

I can rack it on my boot heal, I can rack it on a tree, sign, curb (never trained for my teeth), but how many seconds would that add, plus put you off balance.
All I can say is I was taught to carry with one in a chamber, and that advice saved my life.

Today, having been retired for many years, I still carry with one in a chamber. One reason, training, the other when out and about, I usually have a large dog, or two, tethered to my left arm.

Carry chambered or not, but practice and be comfortable.
__________________
You ask a question, I will answer with my opinion; don't like it, don't use it. I won't care!
RETG is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 11:39 AM   #45
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 3,797
Quote:
Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?
In a traditional single action revolver yes.

It's been a few generations since that was a preferred way to carry a da revolver.

tipoc
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 11:40 AM   #46
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,056
The crucial point was stated as :

Quote:
I didn't trust my ability and confidence
Examining this, I found it puzzling. Folks don't trust themselves not to do the simple action of drawing with a finger on the trigger. However, they trust themselves to do the complex action of drawing and racking and getting on target and then putting the finger on the trigger.

Why don't you think, if you can't control your finger, you wouldn't incorrectly place it during the racking sequence? If your finger is uncontrolled during a draw, why is it controlled later?

Since we know that most concealed carry types have minima training, rarely practice and if they do - it's just square range or tin cans - what's the real problem?

I'm having a hard time supporting folks who can't master a draw, carrying a gun for which they lack confidence. Do they feel confident in their aim, trigger pull, etc. Those are more complex.

This will come up again and the answers are the same. Train to a level of competence. Mechanics are not a solution to competence.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 12:26 PM   #47
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,317
Quote:
Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?
Depending on the reasoning behind carrying an empty chamber, a wheelgun might need to be carried with the NEXT chamber empty, or the chamber actually under the hammer empty, or both the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber empty.

One would prevent the gun from going off if the trigger were accidentally pulled, the other would prevent the firearm from going off if dropped or struck.
Quote:
Most modern revolvers have a hammer block and the firing pin/ hammer can not contact the cartridge unless the trigger is pulled.
This is true of most modern semi-autos as well.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 12:28 PM   #48
stinkeypete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 285
I carry Colt and replica single action revolvers and unmodified Ruger 3-screws with an empty chamber under the cylinder. If you drop one on it’s hammer it really CAN go “booom!” Ruger single actions with transfer bar- full cylinder. Don’t pull the hammer back unless shooting.

Okay... if it’s all trigger control... do you walk around with your Single Action revolvers cocked and holstered? Of course not. Why not?

Double action I imagine it depends on how old the revolver is. My present LCRX I am looking for an owb holster with thumb-break snap. As old and creaky as I am, I still crawl under stuff. The dog’s radio collar control fell out of my pocket that way last fall. I’m fine with long pull and covered trigger and a way to secure the pistol in acrobatic positions. If I saw a bunny, it doesn’t take that long to pop the snap. It gives a more friendly look to the casual folk met on the trail, although in the jacket pocket in an iwb holster sounds good, too.. protect the trigger, finish, and internals from lint and cookie crumbs. Dog cookies. Every darned jacket has dog treat crumbs in it. I am real popular with dogs. “Hey, my dog likes you!” “No kidding, I must smell like a dog smorgasbord.”

I saw an interesting documentary on the auto industry and safety features. Before safety glass, folks got thrown through the windshield when they crashed. “Well”, the reasoning went, “good drivers don’t have crashes. Improve your skills.”

The industry implemented the first generation of safety glass. For a good while, the grisliest job in the highway patrol was searching for lost heads at a crash scene. At the perfectly wrong velocity, the passenger’s head just penetrated the windshield then on the bounce... bouncing back in to the car... decapitation. “Oh, crashes only happen to bad drivers.”

Airplane pilots and race car drivers wore 4 or 5 point harnesses. Super seatbelts. These guys helped change public opinion about seat belts. Now if you are in an accident it’s not automatically assumed that somehow you could avoid it if only you were smart or clever or skilled and manly enough.

Me, every time I handle something dangerous I tell myself that this is an accident waiting to happen to me. I have no proof, but in my life accidents happened when I had grown overconfident. Sort of like the “2 year danger zone” for new motorcycle riders.

I believe the Israeli training is “don’t draw until you are going to shoot. If you draw- shoot.” I can’t say for certain, not being trained there. Makes sense to me- the threat is deadly or it isn’t and if you are not sure, get outa there.

How do I reholster? Usually I empty the magazine at any deadly pine cones, pop cans, bits of abandoned farm implements, whatever. Release slide, release magazine, holster. Reload magazine, unholster, insert magazine, reholster.

Or... pop magazine, rack slide, reinsert magazine, holster, pick up unfired cartridge.

Seriously, you guys are going to trust the safety of a Norinco TT Olympia?

I feel completely confident in my skills.
I feel completely confident that one day I very may well have a ND so I so everything possible to minimize that chance. It will never be zero.
I am completely confident that my chance of a ND is greater than my chance of needing to use my pistol defensively.
I’m confident that when my assessment of risk changes, I can rack the slide, reholster, and carry on as normal.

Now, if we are going to accept YouTube as valid evidence for things, I can show you hundreds of idiots with firearms having all distressing sorts of NDs for every video proving half a second made the difference.

There is “Glock Leg” in the vernacular for a reason.

The resistance to “other people don’t care” and “they do things different in other countries” is sort of amazing.

Last edited by stinkeypete; May 5, 2019 at 12:36 PM.
stinkeypete is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 12:33 PM   #49
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,056
Quote:
I believe the Israeli training is “don’t draw until you are going to shoot. If you draw- shoot.” I can’t say for certain, not being trained there. Makes sense to me- the threat is deadly or it isn’t and if you are not sure, get outa there.
No, that is very naive in the civilian self-defense context. Saying that one has to shoot after a draw is silly and to say that is reckless.

There is a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance here to mask a lack of confidence in ability.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old May 5, 2019, 12:35 PM   #50
JN01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmr40 View Post
I'm sure I'll be shouted down. But carrying with an un-chambered round is a viable option. There is a time and place for both and either is acceptable depending on the situation. And depending on the situation I carry both ways. Sometimes it is FASTER to chamber a round from an un holstered gun than get a pistol with a round chambered out of a holster.
Are you talking about walking around with a pistol in your hand? Where and when would you do that?
JN01 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10046 seconds with 8 queries