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Old May 3, 2019, 02:16 PM   #1
JDBerg
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Good Article on the Israeli Carry Method

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...eli-carry/amp/

Good article about the Israeli Carry Method.

Interesting comment, “To qualify for duty, all Israeli military and police units must meet a standard of 1.2 seconds for placing the first round on target at eight meters with a handgun, starting unchambered “. Proves that if you train & practice it, you can do it!
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Old May 3, 2019, 03:24 PM   #2
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I am sure it can be done but not by this guy.
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Old May 3, 2019, 03:25 PM   #3
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I'm sure I'll be shouted down. But carrying with an un-chambered round is a viable option. There is a time and place for both and either is acceptable depending on the situation. And depending on the situation I carry both ways. Sometimes it is FASTER to chamber a round from an un holstered gun than get a pistol with a round chambered out of a holster.
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Old May 3, 2019, 03:31 PM   #4
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There was an Air Police sergeant in the 1950s who could do a fast draw with an unchambered gun strong hand only, too.

For some reason, that is yet another technique I don't feel a need for.
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Old May 3, 2019, 03:41 PM   #5
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I can train to hang upside down and shoot blindfolded at targets behind me, doesn't mean its better than being upright, with unobstructed sight, and facing the target.
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Old May 3, 2019, 03:51 PM   #6
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Are you carrying to defend the collective or greater good or are you carrying to defend yourself and those you care for?

In a military situation if one or two soldiers fall because of the extra time it takes or because carrying unchambered required both hands the goal of stopping the attacker(s) can still be accomplished by the collective.
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Old May 3, 2019, 03:58 PM   #7
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I don't think it's a totally black and white issue. Some people aren't comfortable with a round in the chamber and will only carry with an empty chamber. There might also be certain carry methods that aren't as safe with a chambered round, like for instance a gun in a purse. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're usually going to be better off with an unchambered gun than you are with nothing.

If you're into playing the odds game and want to argue that the extra 2 seconds it takes to chamber a round is going to make the difference, the reality is the vast majority of us will never need a gun in a defensive situation.
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Old May 3, 2019, 04:13 PM   #8
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We have discussed this before, folks. A diligent member would search for the numerous thread and post links. Not I, though.

This topic leads to the mountains of Madness.
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Old May 3, 2019, 04:48 PM   #9
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This is a broad sport! I don’t carry a pistol to defend myself or others AT ALL. Never. I am a sport shooter- I shoot pistols because I like to, not because I am afraid of people.

That’s a good article.
It points out that many people are required to carry a sidearm but have no interest in training for it.

Background music plays, pan to a man working at his desk. “Bang! Bang! Bang!” The sound of gunfire. The man draws a pistol and racks the slide. He listens. “Bang! Bang! Bang!” then a shout “It’s them gol derned zombies again!” The man gets up and moves to his office door. “Third time this week, stupid zombies. How am I supposed to get this spreadsheet done today?” He opens the door, looks down the hall, and fires.

My club- too many shot the floor, one guy shot himself holstering (he survived) and that’s it, strict rules came down to protect the club’s long term survival. You are in your lane shooting, or firearms are unloaded and actions open.

I’m comfortable with Glocks, I’ve owned a g26, g17 and a g22 LS with an Aimpoint on it. I didn’t care for the pipsqueak 9mm as I was in to big bore then, the g22 was a range gun. At the range, I never had a magazine in it until it was time to shoot! Wait... that’s how it’s done in competition for safety. All these trained competitors, all with guns unloaded until it’s their turn. Because safety.

So I’ve lost track of how many guns I’ve owned over the years, from sketchy old antiques to space guns. I stick with what works for me- always treat as if it’s loaded, and never load until I intend to shoot. Works for every gun, no matter if I forget which I have in my hand.

Other countries, other cultures, other people, other priorities - but maybe me saying
“I shoot pistols for fun, not because I feel I have to”
might remind people to work on some NRA Bullseye targets for a relaxing afternoon or pulverize some pinecones on a log.

Then we make up excuses on why we flinched, not why we got Glock Leg.
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Old May 3, 2019, 04:54 PM   #10
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That's the only article I can find online claiming that time requirement, and at 8 meters no less.

At the end of a two day reflexive shooting course at SIG Sauer we timed everyone in the class. This was delivering one round from the holster at 3 yds with all of us shooting reflexively, meaning pistol not at full extension and not up to our eyes, and sure as hell without racking a round as we pressed out. As a class, I'll check my notes when I get home, the slowest we did was 1.1 seconds. There were a number of sub second hits for sure, but really a second was the norm. This was above average shooters having spent 16 hrs in two days doing these drills and then timing themselves after being in that environment.

I'm sorry, I don't believe that in what is in reality a conscript army that every person is held to that standard. I know police that wouldn't pass that, I know military that wouldn't pass that. Just because it's online doesn't make it true. Do I think people can do that while carrying Israeli style? It may well be possible. All military and all police of a nation? I can't believe that.

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Old May 3, 2019, 05:06 PM   #11
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You need to watch some cop shows from Israel... because it’s on tv and therefore it’s gotta be true!

I liked “Fauda” on Netflix.

The single action QuickDraw cowboy guys are in the .3 to .4 second range. They have an empty cylinder under the hammer, too.
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Old May 3, 2019, 06:28 PM   #12
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If its a striker fired gun like the S&W SD9VE that I keep in my truck it has an empty chamber. But my S&W models 39 and 915 are kept with a loaded chamber when they are loaded. And thats not often. My two HD guns are both loaded revolvers. A gun in my pocket is always a revolver.

Massad Ayoob wrote an article about why the FBI 25 years ago choose to go with the double action/single action auto. He stated that the hammer down on a loaded chamber was safe for carry and quick on the first shot. And then follow up shots with the lighter single action pull would be more accurate. They felt if he fired the first shot he was in a fight for his life and needed the faster single action pull but the double pull was a safe carry method. I agree on all points.
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Old May 3, 2019, 06:32 PM   #13
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Every time this debate is up and I bother reading the postings negating the Israeli shooting technic, I wonder how many of those people have a clue of what they are talking about. How many have been properly trained and master the Israeli technic, and can formulate an educated opinion? IMHO, approximately.... well... hmm.... nobody?
Israelis police officers and soldiers are practical people and also busy defending their country. They probably do not have time to waste debating people that do not want to listen. But what do I know...?

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Old May 3, 2019, 08:03 PM   #14
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I was trained on the "Israeli Method" back in the 1980...in Israel. With a bit of training and practice the system can be very fast and effective. When carrying a SA handgun I still use the method, prefering its safety over "Cocked & Locked".
I haven't looked at the article yet, but the historical reasoning behind the "Israeli Method" is very sound. The IDF, not to mention the various police forces, did not have a standard pistol until some Beretta M951s were brought in. With a great many different guns in service a simple, safe, and universal manual-of-arms was needed. Thus the "Israeli Method" was developed.
And by the way, look up the military histories of all the "Commando Actors" in Fauda. They all did their military service in units similar to the one portrayed in the show.
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Old May 3, 2019, 09:45 PM   #15
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Note to self...

Don't try to moderate on my phone...

Thread reopened.
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Old May 3, 2019, 10:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
This is a broad sport! I don’t carry a pistol to defend myself or others AT ALL. Never. I am a sport shooter- I shoot pistols because I like to, not because I am afraid of people.
I carry a pistol nearly always. I'm not afraid of people, but I understand that there are dangerous people and I prefer not to be a victim.

I have not trained with the Israelis. I do know that increasing complexity increases my chances of making a mistake. A mistake in a deadly encounter sounds bad to me. I'll take my chances with a loaded handgun.

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Old May 3, 2019, 11:03 PM   #17
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Video comparing Israeli vs. American carry methods...

https://youtu.be/HBOPcxGBpgc
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Old May 4, 2019, 05:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc
I haven't looked at the article yet, but the historical reasoning behind the "Israeli Method" is very sound. The IDF, not to mention the various police forces, did not have a standard pistol until some Beretta M951s were brought in. With a great many different guns in service a simple, safe, and universal manual-of-arms was needed. Thus the "Israeli Method" was developed.
I don't doubt the reasoning behind it from that perspective, or from the fact that pistols in the earlier 20th Century didn't have drop safety mechanisms. But the person carrying concealed today doesn't have to face either of those problems, unless he or she chooses to deliberately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkeypete View Post
You need to watch some cop shows from Israel... because it’s on tv and therefore it’s gotta be true!

I liked “Fauda” on Netflix.

The single action QuickDraw cowboy guys are in the .3 to .4 second range. They have an empty cylinder under the hammer, too.
No doubt, TV never exaggerates.

Right, and those cowboy shooters are barely clearing a holster when they deliver that shot, which is why their draw is the way it is. It's designed specifically to get the best time on a timer. Often they have special holsters and are starting with their hands on their pistols with their bodies leaning back. Which is something worth note, we weren't doing that in that class because frankly it's unrealistic. Most of us don't walk around town with our hands on our pistols, and most of us aren't having quickdraw competitions at noon in the town center. I'd also argue cocking a hammer is faster than cycling a slide.

The argument here now seems to be, "Well if someone puts in the time to master it". Well no kidding (though by that argument it still won't be as fast as someone that puts in the time to mastering drawing without needing to rack a round). But how many do put in that time? I don't believe that every soldier and policeman in a conscript army will, and I don't believe that everyone carrying concealed in the US will either. It's an added step that can cause issues. If you've decided that it's worth it for you fair enough, but let's not pretend that everyone carrying Israeli is Sayeret.

https://youtu.be/xncxROU8zEU

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Old May 4, 2019, 10:22 AM   #19
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Double Naught Spy... thanks for the YouTube video.

First of all, it’s been a long time since I heard that accent and it reminds me of good friends from long ago.
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Old May 4, 2019, 10:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446
In a military situation if one or two soldiers fall because of the extra time it takes or because carrying unchambered required both hands the goal of stopping the attacker(s) can still be accomplished by the collective.
But the Israelis don't train that way because they are counting on having other guys around them to take up the slack so they're wiling to lose a few. They train that way because they have reasons that I won't go into because it's unimportant.

1.2 seconds? That's not bad. Does anyone remember the Tueller drill -- the source of the infamous "21-foot rule"? Where did the 21 feet come from?

A lot of instructors and writers mention the "21-foot rule" (which isn't a rule at all), but they often have no idea how it was derived so they explain and teach it wrong. It began with then-Sergeant Tueller timing a bunch of uniformed police officers to see how long it took them to draw their duty weapon from the duty holster and put one shot on target. The average was 1.5 seconds. That was some years ago. More recently, Tueller has commented that newer holsters with better retention require more time to draw.

But let's stay with the 1.5 seconds, and then get back to the Israelis with their 1.2 seconds. To put that in perspective, the Israelis require that ALL of their people be able to draw and fire, from an empty chamber, in 0.3 seconds less time than the average Salt Lake City cop when then-Sergeant Tueller came up with the Tueller drill.
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Old May 4, 2019, 10:42 AM   #21
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The real issue is having an arm out of action as compared to draw speed in a range environment speeded test. It's that simple.

The arm might be injured, tied up by opponent, have to direct a kid, carry a kid, holding a light, or all other contingencies.

Having spent a significant time one handed and having trained in one handed manipulation, my risk matrix decides that I have sufficient ability not to shoot myself as compared not to having the gun in action when needed in extremis.
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Old May 4, 2019, 10:57 AM   #22
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I’m with Glenn on this one. The consideration of the 21 foot rule is not that your draw time must be faster it’s that you better have a plan beyond just drawing. Chances are, if I must use my firearm, the situational will develop within a couple yards of me. 1.5 seconds vs 1.2 seconds isn’t going to matter much if my only course of action is to draw and fire. I want my off hand available to defend myself or throw a punch. Maybe I get lucky, my attacker has a glass jaw, and my gun barely clears leather. If I must cycle the slide I must have two hands (ok I can snag the rear sight on my belt but I’m not going to bet on that when we are already engaged). My concern is less about time though I cannot believe, given equal practice, an added step is quicker. My concern is about needing a relatively complex action

I get some advantage to the idea if practiced. I understand that. But let’s not use separate samples of divergently trained individuals to force some conclusion that adding an action to a sequence is quicker. It lacks any resemblance of face validity.
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Old May 4, 2019, 11:24 AM   #23
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Another point, there is a discussion among folks who are rather professional and analyzed real incidents that it may be necessary to discretely draw a handgun rather than cowboy, face off shoot out that folks are discussing here.

With the need to raise the gun to rack it, the discrete approach is very difficult. This also indicates, that the speed focus is not always the crucial variable.

Google "disguising the draw" to see the relevant points.

I also suggest that the Israeli carry folks take some FOF training with simulated urban incidents in close quarters to see if it is practical.

For example, you get into an altercation with an enraged person in a store. You might want to be ready to engage your gun and draw it, but conceal it behind your back. If you have to draw and rack, you increase the tension in the scenario and make your gun visible before necessary.

If you cannot handle your gun safely, get one you can or practice till you can.
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Old May 4, 2019, 12:03 PM   #24
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It still comes down to practice and proficiency.

At the indoor range where I do most of my shooting, for many years we had informal combat shoots (sort of a cross between IDPA and IPSC) on Thursday nights. One of the most competitive shooters was a young man whose left arm was amputated above the elbow. He shot a single action 1911 (not that there's any other kind of 1911), and was able to perform the full manual of arms with only one hand and one and a half arms.

I'm not recommending carry in condition 3. I carry 1911s, in condition 1. But the Israelis have their reasons, and it demonstrates that in most circumstances the empty chamber isn't the complete deal breaker that it's often regarded as. It all comes down to practice and training.
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Old May 4, 2019, 12:33 PM   #25
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It's a good and useful article.

It's hard for folks to see that until the post war period carrying a 1911, or BHP, in condition one was rare. Condition one was a battle field expedient and in general not a preferred mode of carry when not in a fight or expecting one. The evolution of the role of handguns post war in law enforcement, the military and especially changes in competitive shooting helped propel it's rise.

Jeff Cooper created the names for Condition One, Two and Three. He used all three depending on the circumstances.

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